scherf VS williams

[Darrell Green Fan]

As a follow up let's consider another very real scenario. Had the Redskins not lucked out and Moses had ended up being picked by another team before our 3rd round pick, and he was now a solid starting right tackle somewhere else while we continued to struggle with stop gaps at that position as Murphy failed to justify his draft spot, Dean would be looking even smarter today.

 

[deanpet21]

exactly dgfan. YOu get what I am saying. gk, Scherff was not going to be successful whatever position he played. How can you say that when he could not handle NFL pass rushers in training camp? By Scherff playing guard he didn't have to be out there on an island to block speed rushers. That is huge. That is why Moses was so important to the oline.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

While I agree you can't judge any rookie by his first few days in camp posters are quick to dismiss all the early reports that had him iffy as a tackle prospect but solid as a guard all along. What happened in camp and all season was hardly a surprise, most of us saw that coming on draft day. And again the surprising development of Moses allowed Brandon Scherff to move to a spot where he could excel immediately and that was as critical to the team as his play at RT.

Moses allowed the team to plug 2 holes with good players instead of plugging one with a questionable RT while still having a huge hole at guard. The very best case scenario for Scherff at RT would have been by mid season he was a decent tackle. I think it's safe to say he probably would not have had the year that Moses did.

 

[deanpet21]

That is what I have been saying all along. If Moses failed or got hurt at RT and Scherff had to paly RT we would have been worst on the right side of the oline. When you draft a guy #5 overall you would think he would be able to play both tackle and guard spots. This was not the case with Scherff. This is why I questioned the pick. Scherff is a great guard prospect but not tackle. The better tackle prospect was Flowers. People on here get pissed at me for saying that but its true.

dgfan let me ask you this if we had taken Jackson over Long and Jackson showed that he was a starter from day 1 for the last two years, would it have change the mindset going into the draft last year? Its a huge hypothetical but interesting to think about.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Hard to say. Let's not forget Scherff was drafted to play right tackle, again that's where he started in mini-camp and at the start of training camp. The backup plan was to move him to guard but no I do not believe he was drafted with the idea of playing him at guard all along because they didn't draft Jackson because they had holes at both positions.

SM claims he does not draft for need and never signs players with baggage but his actions say otherwise. But if he really did not draft for need, which I don't buy, then it's impossible to predict how that draft would have gone.

 

[deanpet21]

I believe SM drafted for need. If Scherff didnt work out at tackle they could always move him to guard. It was a great backup plan b/c SM didn't trust Long. At that time both positions were a need. Just think if Shcerff had to play RT and failed SM would have taken major heat for the pick. Luckily Moses worked at RT and Scherff moved to RG and worked out.

Its just my opinion that we drafted Scehrff and Smith b/c there was no confidence in Long and Murphy to be long term starters. I know some disagree but that is just my opinion. Plus if you factor in the Kojo pick there is even less confidence in Long. The only way Long becomes a starter for this team is if he moves to center but I feel the center position will be addressed in FA or the draft.

 

[skinsdad62]

first lets get this thread straight for the second time i started the thread to tweak dean ,ok i am an evil moderator

now let get back to some things . i said all along before the draft that if sherf was a OG then so be it . i posted top 5 guards on all NFL drafts and we went over the alleged viability of that . so to say NO ONE thought he was drafted to play OG is somewhat off base

i posted analysis of moses play and he made a huge jump from the train wreck he was a s a rookie but its clear he needs work to reach a jon jansen level of a RT

as far as moses playing better then murphy now that is highly a stretch . perhaps murphy wasnt better but i dont think moses out shown him

SM took the BPA at 5 last season . what some dont want to admit is that their man crush didnt prove he was better in year one because scherf clearly was better at his position and by allowing only 2 sacks and having 3 penalties called on him all year that certainly puts him at borderline pro bowl level williams played like a good 3rd option on a d/line

 

[deanpet21]

I know you said Scherff was a OG at draft time skinsdad. You are one of the few who did. Moses is playing very well for a 3rd round pick coming off a major injury. Now he has a full offseason to practice, we will see how he does. How is Moses playing better than Murphy a stretch when Moses is a starter and Murphy will be reduced to a backup/ST player? Moses was the one that allowed Scherff to kick inside and be a better player. If Moses wasn't playing well then Sherff would have played RT and we don't do as well this year.

Williams didn't have big sack numbers but 3-4 ends rarely do. Plus Williams is playing a lot tougher position than Scherff right now. You have to take that into account when you are comparing these guys. Plus the Jets might lose Harrison and Wilkerson in FA so it was a no-brainer pick for the Jets. We all knew Hatcher wasn't going to last so I thought is was a no brainer for the Skins.

The shit didn't hit the fan this year b/c Sherff moved inside. Like I said before, if Sherff had to paly RT, SM would have taken major heat for the pick b/c everyone in our organization wanted Williams but SM wanted Scherf and he had the final say.

 

[skinsdad62]

I know you said Scherff was a OG at draft time skinsdad. You are one of the few who did. Moses is playing very well for a 3rd round pick coming off a major injury. Now he has a full offseason to practice, we will see how he does. How is Moses playing better than Murphy a stretch when Moses is a starter and Murphy will be reduced to a backup/ST player? Moses was the one that allowed Scherff to kick inside and be a better player. If Moses wasn't playing well then Sherff would have played RT and we don't do as well this year.

Williams didn't have big sack numbers but 3-4 ends rarely do. Plus Williams is playing a lot tougher position than Scherff right now. You have to take that into account when you are comparing these guys. Plus the Jets might lose Harrison and Wilkerson in FA so it was a no-brainer pick for the Jets. We all knew Hatcher wasn't going to last so I thought is was a no brainer for the Skins.

The shit didn't hit the fan this year b/c Sherff moved inside. Like I said before, if Sherff had to paly RT, SM would have taken major heat for the pick b/c everyone in our organization wanted Williams but SM wanted Scherf and he had the final say.

i am not talking about sacks numbers solely . his numbers in general were pedestrian . and his linemates managed sacks

richardson had 5 in 11 games while wilkerson had a whopping 12 sacks so again williams was good starting d/lineman on a good jets d/line but he wasnt anywhere near in a pro bowl conversation like sherf was .

shit would not have hit the fan either because a starting LT in college certainly can play RT well in the pros if needs be

your hole premise is wrong . moses didnt beat out scherf , he beat out long . scherf certainly would have been as efficient at RT as moses was this season as my film break down showed

 

[deanpet21]

your premise is wrong. Why did Scherff struggle so much at RT in training camp? If he dominated at RT there was no way they were going to move him b/c of his draft pick status. Didn't matter how Moses played. If they had there tackle of the future why screw with him and move him to guard? If Moses beat out Long then why wasn't Moses the Rg and Scherff the RT? Dgfan also agrees with me on this. The Skins got scared when he wasn't performing at OT so he had to go to guard. You said it yourself the guy is a guard.

 

[skinsdad62]

your premise is wrong. Why did Scherff struggle so much at RT in training camp? If he dominated at RT there was no way they were going to move him b/c of his draft pick status. Didn't matter how Moses played. If they had there tackle of the future why screw with him and move him to guard? If Moses beat out Long then why wasn't Moses the Rg and Scherff the RT? Dgfan also agrees with me on this. The Skins got scared when he wasn't performing at OT so he had to go to guard. You said it yourself the guy is a guard.

i beg to differ about him struggling anymore then any other rookie . the staff said they inserted moses in at RT " to get the best 5 lineman on the field " not anything was said about moses beating scherf out not one thing moses was considered at RG as you seem to forget however the coaches felt moses at RT would be best to get the line cohesive the fastest

but again i will go back to the main point , scherf , as a rookie , outplayed williams , period and i provided the stats that that back up my position and defused yours .

now i know you think you have ESP and know what was going through callahans and grudens head but their public statements back what shark and i have been saying

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Again Scherff at guard was the safest bet of all the scenarios we are discussing (Scherff at tackle, Williams at DL outplaying Scherff at guard in year one). Nothing that happened this year was surprising or proved anyone was right. My position was you don't grade a draft after year one and you don't take a guard at 5 unless he is a once in a lifetime player.

 

[gkekoa]

See I don't agree with this logic. Was Richard Sherman a 5th round talent because 32 teams determined that's what he was? Of course not. Moses has exceeded most 3rd round picks' projections, I think that is obvious, while Murphy is just a guy and has certainly not lived up to the expectations when they drafted him in my opinion. High 2nd round picks should be really solid starters, Murphy is a backup at this point and for the foreseeable future.

I think Dean understands draft expectations just fine. He expected Moses to play better than Murphy the day they were both drafted and it is becoming pretty clear to me that his expectations were on target.

He was a fifth round prospect, not a fifth round talent. There is a huge difference because there is a difference in potential and body of work.

Where is your evidence that a 2nd rounder should be a really solid starter before year three? It simply isn't true. I have shown evidence where most 2nd rounders are not starters at all. I have shown evidence that about 35% are lucky to even be on a team.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

He was a fifth round prospect, not a fifth round talent. There is a huge difference because there is a difference in potential and body of work.

Where is your evidence that a 2nd rounder should be a really solid starter before year three? It simply isn't true. I have shown evidence where most 2nd rounders are not starters at all. I have shown evidence that about 35% are lucky to even be on a team.

Not sure I understand the difference. Sherman was taken in the 5th round. That was where the market assesed where he was as a prospect, and just like with Moses once they strap them on in the big boy league it doesn't mean a damn thing. Bottom line, and the basis for this entire debate, is Murphy was drafted a full round before Moses and has under performed the guy picked a full round later.

 

[Krusheasy]

Your most talented O-lineman can play any position on the line. Just remember that. And dont shit a brick if we actually come up with another starting caliber Guard, and Scherff gets moved back to RT based on talent.

you guys been going at this for months, lol