Russell Wilson and Kaepernick

[yossarian]

Having seen most of the Seahawk games this year, and most of the 49er games, I'm interested in what people think of Wilson v. Kaepernick so far this year. I personally don't think that either qb is doing tremendously well, last night Wilson had 3 tds, but also lost 2 fumbles from not sensing the pressure. I was also listening to Hugh Millen on the radio yesterday and he said that the Seahawk receivers have some brief open windows, but Wilson isn't getting it to them, whether because Carroll has drilled the no turnover thing into his head, or arm strength confidence or whatever (to be fair, of all the Seattle radio personalities, Hugh Millen is probably the most critical of Wilson). Anyway, we've all critiqued Kaepernick's inability to spot the open guy, making the wrong decision (running or not running), and while I think that Wilson has a great Fran Tarkenton like ability to scramble and make a play (better than Kaepernick), I'm not sure outside of that he's doing so much better.

Thoughts?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I think that's a fair assessment.

I've probably seen about 65% of the Hawks' offensive snaps this season, maybe a little bit more. I think the only game I missed entirely was the Jags game, and last week I had it on the computer while watching the Niners, so I didn't pay very close attention. Wilson is phenomenal at getting out of the pocket and eluding tacklers until a receiver comes open downfield. I still don't know how his guys get as open as they often do, even during broken plays, but he is as good as I can recall seeing at finding them in this area. He's also great at improvising, as we saw on that pass he completed with his body practically horizontal and an inch or two off the grass last night. He also has a way of coming through big at crucial times. I am not very impressed with his play from the pocket, though. He just isn't sitting back there and delivering accurate strikes consistently. I can't help but think his height could be affecting him in this area. Last night he missed on a few slants and quick passes across the middle. I haven't seen any all-22 film on Wilson, so it's hard to say if he's failing to see open guys consistnetly, but I would believe it. It's also hard to say if he's zeroing in on his primary read as he doesn't throw it to his first read very often, instead leaving the pocket.

Kap's struggles have been somewhat different. He's actually been playing pretty well from the pocket, but has regressed outside the pocket. It's almost getting to Alex Smith levels where, once he leaves the pocket, the play is basically dead (ok, it's not quite THAT bad...). And either way, his accuracy has not been great. But Kap clearly isn't seeing the field nearly as well as he needs to, and has a tendency to zero in on his first read and throw it even when that look is covered. He seems to be thinking too much instead of going out and playing the way he did last year.

In the longterm, I'm not sure which of these guys I would prefer. I think Wilson is actually relying on his athleticism quite a bit more than Kap at this point, and I'm curious to see if he can maintain that style of play. Granted his OL isn't nearly as good. But he took a lot of big hits last night, and he's a little guy. Kap has a long way to go to become a good/great pocket passer, though.

 

[TobyTyler]

Having seen most of the Seahawk games this year, and most of the 49er games, I'm interested in what people think of Wilson v. Kaepernick so far this year. I personally don't think that either qb is doing tremendously well, last night Wilson had 3 tds, but also lost 2 fumbles from not sensing the pressure. I was also listening to Hugh Millen on the radio yesterday and he said that the Seahawk receivers have some brief open windows, but Wilson isn't getting it to them, whether because Carroll has drilled the no turnover thing into his head, or arm strength confidence or whatever (to be fair, of all the Seattle radio personalities, Hugh Millen is probably the most critical of Wilson). Anyway, we've all critiqued Kaepernick's inability to spot the open guy, making the wrong decision (running or not running), and while I think that Wilson has a great Fran Tarkenton like ability to scramble and make a play (better than Kaepernick), I'm not sure outside of that he's doing so much better.

Thoughts?

Wilson is far superior. More confident, more polished, more under control, more intelligent and better able to make the big play. Shows you that physical tools really don't mean a lot if you don't have the smarts to go along with them. I would equate Wilson more with Jim Zorn than Fran Tarkenton though.

 

[BloodType49]

Wilson seems to be the more well rounded QB so far this year and is playing behind a porous O Line which makes it more impressive.
Kap has been Good this year, but has also been wildly inconsistent, the expectations were so high coming into the season I think we cant help but be somewhat disappointed in what we've seen so far.

Overall I'm happy with Kap as our QB and do believe he will steadily improve as the season goes on and receivers start coming back.

But right now Wilson>>>Kap

 

[deep9er]

all the above comments are reasonable, so agree Wilson has shown a LITTLE more intangibles than Kaep. but as also mentioned, this doesn't mean Wilson is excelling as a pocket passer. today's NFL QB need to be good passers......from the pocket. if you rely heavily on getting outside (broken plays), or rely on running, that doesn't cut it.

said from before the season, they'll be judged by their passing skills first and foremost.

"long term", i'll take my chances with Kaep. his intangibles is close enough to Wilson, and has more physical tools.

 

[Jikkle]

Wilson is better at the moment but the difference isn't huge.

Seattle stuck with the Lynch and the power running attack right off the bat which has helped ease the burden off Wilson's shoulders.

The biggest difference right now is the legs. Wilson has helped tremendously with his scrambles and rushes and that factor you could argue has had a bigger impact than his arm has so far.

But both are going through the typical growing pains young QBs go through. They were so dynamic last season so people are wondering what's wrong but it's no unusual for QBs to go through ups and downs and some inconsistencies especially in their second year of starting. I mean there is a reason the term sophomore slump gets thrown around with QBs entering their 2nd year.

It's easy to forget that even the elite guys in the league like Rodgers and Brady had some struggles in the early part of their careers. Brady's worst year as a pro was his 3rd year in the league and 2nd year starting and Rodgers worst year as a pro was his 1st year as a starter but already in his 4th year in the league.

QBs really don't start hitting their stride until the 3rd or 4th years as starters so no reason to panic on any of these young guys right now.

 

[HustleWilson]

Russell Wilson has looked way more impressive than Kaepernick imo. Wilson has been playing behind one of the worst O lines in the league (due to multiple injuries) and an average WR core (until Percy Harvin comes back). The fact that he still has a passer rating close to 100 is amazing. There might be less than 10 guys in the world that can do that.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Russell Wilson has looked way more impressive than Kaepernick imo. Wilson has been playing behind one of the worst O lines in the league (due to multiple injuries) and an average WR core (until Percy Harvin comes back). The fact that he still has a passer rating close to 100 is amazing. There might be less than 10 guys in the world that can do that.

Passer rating doesn't tell anything close to the whole story. He's also got six fumbles, which passer rating doesn't consider. And despite playing seven games to most other guys' six, or even five, he's 19th in the league in attempts. He also has the benefit of playing with what is very arguably the best defense in the league and a very strong running game. By and large, the Hawks' offense has struggled. They have not sustained drives well, and if teams can limit the running game and prevent Wilson from capitalizing on broken plays, they have been downright bad. Some of the blame for that has to fall on Wilson's shoulders.

I think Wilson has performed better than Kap to date this season. But I also think he's limited if he continues to play the way he has to date this year. And neither guy is playing as well as he did to end last year.

 

[HighTopFade]

Wilson is better between the ears.

 

[whysies]

Anyone who says that Wilson has been playing significantly better than Kap is either A. Not watching the games, B. A Seahawks fan, or C. A senile old troll

Both QBs have been ok overall and have had their ups and downs but I would rather have the QB who still has untapped potential and that's Kaepernick.

 

[Podunkparte]

Passer rating doesn't tell anything close to the whole story. He's also got six fumbles, which passer rating doesn't consider. And despite playing seven games to most other guys' six, or even five, he's 19th in the league in attempts. He also has the benefit of playing with what is very arguably the best defense in the league and a very strong running game. By and large, the Hawks' offense has struggled. They have not sustained drives well, and if teams can limit the running game and prevent Wilson from capitalizing on broken plays, they have been downright bad. Some of the blame for that has to fall on Wilson's shoulders.

I think Wilson has performed better than Kap to date this season. But I also think he's limited if he continues to play the way he has to date this year. And neither guy is playing as well as he did to end last year.

Fumbles don't always tell the story either. One last night was his fault for not tucking it when he saw the guy hitting him. The other two were just blind strips due to poor blocking from an Oline missing 2 starters, one of which happens to be a Pro-Bowler. Any QB would fumble the ball in that situation.

You can talk about teams limiting the run game and stopping RW from extending plays all you want but that doesn't make it easier to do. You also can't just say a team's bad if you take away 2/3 of their offensive production. Of course they'd be downright bad. Take away Vernon Davis and Kaep and the 9ers suck too. That's not a valid argument.

I don't think Wilson should be judged on his pocket passing ability much until the offensive line gets a little healthier. He's got almost no time at all to show what he can do in a pocket right now.

 

[Podunkparte]

Anyone who says that Wilson has been playing significantly better than Kap is either A. Not watching the games, B. A Seahawks fan, or C. A senile old troll

Both QBs have been ok overall and have had their ups and downs but I would rather have the QB who still has untapped potential and that's Kaepernick.

Anyone who doesn't think Russell Wilson has untapped potential is either A. A 9ers homer, or C. A 9ers homer.

B. isn't an option but if it were, it would be A 9ers homer

Seriously though, do you really think RW has no upside from this point, objectively?

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

Food for thought---

Sidney Rice is the most underrated receiver in the league.

 

[whysies]

Anyone who doesn't think Russell Wilson has untapped potential is either A. A 9ers homer, or C. A 9ers homer.

B. isn't an option but if it were, it would be A 9ers homer

Seriously though, do you really think RW has no upside from this point, objectively?

I think Crimson hit the nail on the head in regards to how limited he is. Also, much like Manziel I think the horseshoe will be forceably removed from his butt at some point and the lucky passes will turn into incompletions, or worse, interceptions.

Right now he's a mobile quarterback who is very adept at improvising and who also struggles in the pocket. Plus, hes tiny. How many of those guys have found sustained success in NFL history?

What upside do you see him having? Do you think he's going to go through a growth spurt?

 

[whysies]

Look, people love Wilson because he's an unconventional quarterback and he's a scrappy underdog who has a work ethic that is 100X that of any mortal NFL QB. He's somehow both an everyman (underappreciated, everyone doubts him, average height) and a living Paul Bunyon (able to leap tall buildings in a single bound with nothing but his smarts and his knowledge of the playbook).

Why can't he just be judged for his actual play on the field?

 

[MHSL82]

Look, people love Wilson because he's an unconventional quarterback and he's a scrappy underdog who has a work ethic that is 100X that of any mortal NFL QB. He's somehow both an everyman (underappreciated, everyone doubts him, average height) and a living Paul Bunyon (able to leap tall buildings in a single bound with nothing but his smarts and his knowledge of the playbook).

Why can't he just be judged for his actual play on the field?

If only he could change directions in midair like Reggie.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Fumbles don't always tell the story either. One last night was his fault for not tucking it when he saw the guy hitting him. The other two were just blind strips due to poor blocking from an Oline missing 2 starters, one of which happens to be a Pro-Bowler. Any QB would fumble the ball in that situation.

You can talk about teams limiting the run game and stopping RW from extending plays all you want but that doesn't make it easier to do. You also can't just say a team's bad if you take away 2/3 of their offensive production. Of course they'd be downright bad. Take away Vernon Davis and Kaep and the 9ers suck too. That's not a valid argument.

I don't think Wilson should be judged on his pocket passing ability much until the offensive line gets a little healthier. He's got almost no time at all to show what he can do in a pocket right now.

I recall one bad blind-side strip sack while Wilson was passing last night. My recollection is that he was on the move for the other two.

As far as taking away 2/3 of a team's offense, broken plays aren't the same as a player. When teams have forced Wilson to stay in the pocket and make plays, he's struggled. Part of that is probably the OL, but he was struggling to make plays from the pocket before he lost his OTs. This season, he has been indecisive and inaccurate from the pocket. Only a small measure of that falls on the OL IMO.

 

[SonnyCID]

I think Crimson hit the nail on the head in regards to how limited he is. Also, much like Manziel I think the horseshoe will be forceably removed from his butt at some point and the lucky passes will turn into incompletions, or worse, interceptions.

Right now he's a mobile quarterback who is very adept at improvising and who also struggles in the pocket. Plus, hes tiny. How many of those guys have found sustained success in NFL history?

What upside do you see him having? Do you think he's going to go through a growth spurt?

Not if those "lucky" passes keep coming from good decisions.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

And again, these same criticisms apply to Kaepernick. But Kap isn't receiving nearly the praise Wilson has been so far as I can tell.

 

[purguy12]

Wilson is ok but nothing great.