Royals > your shitty dogshit excuse for a team

[SlinkyRedfoot]

At the time, he was one of the best young bats in the minors
Nobody thought he sucked until last season.

Same thing could happen to Swihart. A lot of prospects never have higher value than they do when they are in the minors

hes the best catching prospect in baseball right now

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I would average out the ERA pitched by Herrera, Davis, and Holland; then it's pretty easy to figure out. It's around 1.2 if I recall.

5th in FIP even so. When it's high leverage guys, they dominated. Low leverage? Pretty uninspiring.

So, what you are saying is that if we don't count the guys that made the Royals' bullpen ERA rank tenth in MLB, the Royals' bullpen was the best in MLB?

 

[Fountain City Blues]

So, what you are saying is that if we don't count the guys that made the Royals' bullpen ERA rank tenth in MLB, the Royals' bullpen was the best in MLB?

Well, yeah, there will always be biases based on how far SP's would go; that's not really unique. 5th fewest innings for a BP in baseball last year. Still 5th in fWAR. More Long Reliever innings are almost always bad for the ERA. They were also 5th in FIP. When 7-8-9 was so dominant, it's going to get noticed. Could have made a not entirely crazy argument there 3 top 10 RP's, and 2 of the top 5, in that pen. Frasor rounding out middle relief definitely made it the best in MLB, imo. IIRC, there were ~72-1 after leading the 7th inning last year.

7-8-9 guys last year

Herrera: 1.41 ERA

Davis 1.00 ERA

Holland 1.44

After getting traded to the Royals, Frasor also had a sub 2 ERA.

 

[da55bums]

I keep seeing this. The Royals' bullpen's ERA ranked 10th in MLB last year and 5th in the AL. What am I missing?

The Padres, Royals then the Yanks were the top 3 clutch bullpens in the majors last season. (per fangraphs) With the 4th team significantly behind all 3. ERA doesn't tell you who the best bullpen is. With few innings, getting lit up in a short outing makes era for relievers not as telling. Whip actually is a better indicator than ERA for relievers.

If Seattle blows more leads, in game or end of game but ends up throwing more shutout innings in blowouts, it really doesn't mean as much.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

The Padres, Royals then the Yanks were the top 3 clutch bullpens in the majors last season. (per fangraphs) With the 4th team significantly behind all 3. ERA doesn't tell you who the best bullpen is. With few innings, getting lit up in a short outing makes era for relievers not as telling. Whip actually is a better indicator than ERA for relievers.

If Seattle blows more leads, in game or end of game but ends up throwing more shutout innings in blowouts, it really doesn't mean as much.

Easiest way to phrase it is to ask if anyone can match Frasor, Herrera, Davis, Holland down the stretch. The answer is a pretty emphatic no. No more Crow with his negative 1.1 fWAR and FIP over 5 to drag down the rest of the BP. (why the Marlins gave up more than some nice nachos for Crow, I'll never know)

The BP this year looks much, much better if it has to go to LR or Middle Relief. It's no longer the HDH show.

 

[msgkings322]

Easiest way to phrase it is to ask if anyone can match Frasor, Herrera, Davis, Holland down the stretch. The answer is a pretty emphatic no. No more Crow with his negative 1.1 fWAR and FIP over 5 to drag down the rest of the BP. (why the Marlins gave up more than some nice nachos for Crow, I'll never know)

The BP this year looks much, much better if it has to go to LR or Middle Relief. It's no longer the HDH show.

Royals look like they are a better team now and yes even without Shields.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

The Padres, Royals then the Yanks were the top 3 clutch bullpens in the majors last season. (per fangraphs) With the 4th team significantly behind all 3. ERA doesn't tell you who the best bullpen is. With few innings, getting lit up in a short outing makes era for relievers not as telling. Whip actually is a better indicator than ERA for relievers.

If Seattle blows more leads, in game or end of game but ends up throwing more shutout innings in blowouts, it really doesn't mean as much.

The Royals' bullpen's WHIP ranked 13th in MLB.

 

[da55bums]

agree.

The Athletics pen had the best ERA but were terrible in the clutch and Win Probablility, etc., plenty of mop up innings maybe more long reliever use as well.

 

[da55bums]

The Royals' bullpen's WHIP ranked 13th in MLB.

well, then its Clutch and Win Probablity, those relievers who pitchers who pitch in the blowouts seem to not matter in judging the top bullpen according to fan graphs then.

Moose said it well, your bullpen is judged on the strong side of your pen and pitch when it matters.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Well, yeah, there will always be biases based on how far SP's would go; that's not really unique. 5th fewest innings for a BP in baseball last year. Still 5th in fWAR. More Long Reliever innings are almost always bad for the ERA. They were also 5th in FIP. When 7-8-9 was so dominant, it's going to get noticed. Could have made a not entirely crazy argument there 3 top 10 RP's, and 2 of the top 5, in that pen. Frasor rounding out middle relief definitely made it the best in MLB, imo. IIRC, there were ~72-1 after leading the 7th inning last year.

7-8-9 guys last year

Herrera: 1.41 ERA

Davis 1.00 ERA

Holland 1.44

After getting traded to the Royals, Frasor also had a sub 2 ERA.

Seems that we're in agreement that you're ignoring roughly half of the Royals relief innings to determine that the Royals had the best bullpen in the majors.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Royals look like they are a better team now and yes even without Shields.

I try not to get too caught up in it. But guys like Moustakas getting 10 of 11 hits to left field is extremely encouraging, regardless of sample; that shift against him is going to die really fast if he continues that. Kendrys Morales' looks like pre-2014 Morales. I hope the Giants get healthy soon, sucks when the injury bug causes problems.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

well, then its Clutch and Win Probablity, those relievers who pitchers who pitch in the blowouts seem to not matter in judging the top bullpen according to fan graphs then.

Moose said it well, your bullpen is judged on the strong side of your pen and pitch when it matters.

Over 162, I'll take the bullpen that allows less earned runs per inning than the bullpen that FanGraphs considers the clutchiest bullpen. Call me crazy.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Seems that we're in agreement that you're ignoring roughly half of the Royals reliefe innings to determine that the Royals had the best bullpen in the majors.

I suppose I am, but I am also weighing innings 7-8-9 far more than innings typically reserved for low leverage; innings typically pitched by a starter. Just a matter of interpretation in how much you weigh innings 7-8-9, which the Royals were ludicrously dominant in last year.

Innings are not created equally for BP's in my book, imo. You should expect your starters to go 6, the BP to pitch 7-8-9, normally.

 

[da55bums]

Seems that we're in agreement that you're ignoring roughly half of the Royals reliefe innings to determine that the Royals had the best bullpen in the majors.

well, in judging the best bullpen you do, study Fangraphs that's how statistically pros come up with "the best bullpen"...

or just name a better 6,7,8,9 relievers on any baseball team in the Majors you would want to protect your lead.

 

[da55bums]

Over 162, I'll take the bullpen that allows less earned runs per inning than the bullpen that FanGraphs considers the clutchiest bullpen. Call me crazy.

yeah, that's crazy...

I would rather have Holland, Robertson, Davis, Belencis with Phil Coke, Joba Chamberlin, AA, Bruce Chen in a pen...

Than 8 guys with lower era.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

yeah, that's crazy...

I would rather have Holland, Robertson, Davis, Belencis with Phil Coke, Joba Chamberlin, AA, Bruce Chen in a pen...

Than 8 guys with lower era.

I actually do think it's a somewhat reasonable question. That bullpen was really weak last year in low leverage. It wasn't really needed most of the time, but low leverage was pretty bad until they traded for Frasor.

 

[da55bums]

I see the "point" of thinking lowest ERA wins, but that's like saying the bench position players should play in all the games also. The bad position guys and bad relievers just don't count as much.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

As big as I am with rate stats like FIP, ERA en sech, BP's don't quite work that way.

 

[da55bums]

agree, low leverage bullpen innings are almost toss away innings, Chen, Crow (might be a worse draft pick than Hochevar now), Collins (man he fell off)

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I suppose I am, but I am also weighing innings 7-8-9 far more than innings typically reserved for low leverage; innings typically pitched by a starter. Just a matter of interpretation in how much you weigh innings 7-8-9, which the Royals were ludicrously dominant in last year.

Innings are not created equally for BP's in my book, imo. You should expect your starters to go 6, the BP to pitch 7-8-9, normally.

well, in judging the best bullpen you do, study Fangraphs that's how statistically pros come up with "the best bullpen"...

or just name a better 6,7,8,9 relievers on any baseball team in the Majors you would want to protect your lead.

In innings 7, 8 & 9, the Royals bullpen ERA ranked 7th in the majors, and one of you said WHIP is more important, so I looked that up too, they ranked 12th.

So, now that we've found that the Royals bullpen didn't have the best ERA, WHIP, ERA from 7in on, or WHIP from 7in on in either MLB or the AL, can we quit all the masturbatory "best bullpen in the majors" shit, or should I expect a "well, you have to think about only the 7,8,&9 innings where they had a lead and were able to protect it" post?

They had a great bullpen, but "the best in the majors" is at least debatable, if not just incorrect.