Roy vs Hasek vs Brodeur

[quoipourquoi]

I think the bottom line is goalies then>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goalies now. Much smaller pads, gloves and NO MASKS!!!

Shooters back then were worse. Even enforcers like McCarty and Parros can snipe corners better than the best players from the 1930s. Goalies need to be bigger to keep scorers in check - needless to say, the days of Hainsworth's 22 shutouts were back when top-end defense was too overpowering. Of course, you're not exactly going to make any friends using the time machine argument (Parros better than Richard?), so it's best just to compare them to their peers.

Unfortunately for goaltenders, save percentage wasn't officially recorded until 1984. But once they started recording save percentage and the league averages...

Playoff Save Percentage Above the League Average - SC Finalists
1. Patrick Roy, 1986 (.049)
2. Patrick Roy, 1993 (.044)
3. Patrick Roy, 1989 (.041)
4. Pelle Lindbergh, 1985 (.039)
5. Grant Fuhr, 1984 (.037)
6. Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 2003 (.036)
7. Olaf Kolzig, 1998 (.035)
8. John Vanbiesbrouck, 1996 (.034)
9. Tom Barrasso, 1991 (.033)
9. Kirk McLean, 1994 (.033)

Patrick Roy made it pretty clear that he was the bee's knees when he needed to be.

 

[beantownmaniac]

Absolutely... I don't think you could just teleport Sawchuk into today's game and have him succeed, but if he was born in 1985 and had access to all of today's training regimens, for sure he would be dominant. I am a little fascinated by how dominant different goalies were by era. If you took a second tier guy like Joseph and threw him into the 70's, would he be an absolute monster? Or would he have trouble cracking a lineup in a smaller league? Stuff like that intrigues me.

In the 70's he wouldn't be competing with the European goalies so he may have made the cut. When the great players from over there came to the NHL, the game changed a bit, for the good IMO.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Again, I must point to my personal Lord and Savior, Chris Osgood. Is he "better" than Curtis Joseph or Eddie Belfour? His playoff record is, his Cup appearances and wins are. Hasek had three years on good Detroit teams, and he won a Cup once and went to the WCFs once. Other than that, he was stuck as a backup in Chicago, stuck on a glorified AHL team in Buffalo, injured, or in Ottawa.

I wouldn't say Osgood's playoff record is better than Ed Belfour's. Belfour had about 5 strong, deep playoff runs above a .920; Osgood had just the three (1998, 2008, 2009). Joseph almost always played well, but Osgood does compare favorably when you look at the playoffs. If I was ordering the guys from the era, it would be Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph, Osgood. I wouldn't object to Joseph and Osgood being HOFers one day, but with Joseph's lack of a championship and Osgood's lack of regular season consistency, I can understand why it may never happen.

As for Hasek's Buffalo Sabres, they were a little better than advertised. Their single run to the Finals was on the backs of both Hasek and the offensive players scoring 50 goals in just 15 games. Obviously, once they ran into Ed Belfour at the top of his game, things changed.

 

[beantownmaniac]

Shooters back then were worse. Even enforcers like McCarty and Parros can snipe corners better than the best players from the 1930s. Goalies need to be bigger to keep scorers in check - needless to say, the days of Hainsworth's 22 shutouts were back when top-end defense was too overpowering. Of course, you're not exactly going to make any friends using the time machine argument (Parros better than Richard?), so it's best just to compare them to their peers.

Unfortunately for goaltenders, save percentage wasn't officially recorded until 1984. But once they started recording save percentage and the league averages...

Playoff Save Percentage Above the League Average - SC Finalists
1. Patrick Roy, 1986 (.049)
2. Patrick Roy, 1993 (.044)
3. Patrick Roy, 1989 (.041)
4. Pelle Lindbergh, 1985 (.039)
5. Grant Fuhr, 1984 (.037)
6. Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 2003 (.036)
7. Olaf Kolzig, 1998 (.035)
8. John Vanbiesbrouck, 1996 (.034)
9. Tom Barrasso, 1991 (.033)
9. Kirk McLean, 1994 (.033)

Patrick Roy made it pretty clear that he was the bee's knees when he needed to be.

But would McCarty and Parros be better if they played back then? No curved blades until the 60's. We were just having a little fun throwing in the old timers, although I'm not saying they aren't worth mentioning. When you put players in different era's, you have to remember they have the same advantages of that era as the other players. Guys like Orr, Howe, Lemieux, Richard, Dryden, Sawchuk could play in any era. Feel free to add to the list.

 

[quoipourquoi]

In the 70's he wouldn't be competing with the European goalies so he may have made the cut. When the great players from over there came to the NHL, the game changed a bit, for the good IMO.

I don't know how many European goaltenders would've made it to the NHL back then besides Vladislav Tretiak and Jiri Holecek. The issue with Sawchuk overall (not unlike with Guy Lafleur) is that the first five years of his career were incredible, but then he was kinda just there for the rest of it - with one or two more good years after leaving Detroit in 1955. Guys like Roy and Brodeur have a lot more than just 5-7 good seasons though.

 

[quoipourquoi]

But would McCarty and Parros be better if they played back then? No curved blades until the 60's.

No. That's my point. You can't look at goaltenders with smaller pads and masks and say that they have an advantage when they only have those things to off-set the advantage that the players have with size and strength (humans in general are getting bigger) and Synergy hockey sticks.

That's why I look at the things that would transfer to any era: Guys like Roy, Hasek, Fuhr, Smith, Sawchuk, Hall, Plante - they would be big game players in any era. Brodeur, as good as he is, might not function as well in a system that does not allow for him to break up a team's forecheck with his clearing shots. Even still, he's one of the greats.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

I wouldn't say Osgood's playoff record is better than Ed Belfour's. Belfour had about 5 strong, deep playoff runs above a .920; Osgood had just the three (1998, 2008, 2009). Joseph almost always played well, but Osgood does compare favorably when you look at the playoffs. If I was ordering the guys from the era, it would be Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph, Osgood. I wouldn't object to Joseph and Osgood being HOFers one day, but with Joseph's lack of a championship and Osgood's lack of regular season consistency, I can understand why it may never happen.

As for Hasek's Buffalo Sabres, they were a little better than advertised. Their single run to the Finals was on the backs of both Hasek and the offensive players scoring 50 goals in just 15 games. Obviously, once they ran into Ed Belfour at the top of his game, things changed.

I'm really on the fence about Joseph and Osgood, but if I had to choose I would say no to both right now. In my mind, this is the HOF test: You are an old crippled fuck, taking his grandson to Toronto to see the HOF. You can't wait to teach him about all the great players you yourself grew up watching, so he will understand the history of the game. You walk through the doors, you comb the halls, and... WHAT THE FUCK??? NO CHRIS OSGOOD? NO CURTIS JOSEPH?? NO FREAKING GARY GALLEY?!?!?!?!

See, it just sounds ridiculous. If Joseph wins even one Cup, or if Osgood wins that last one in '09 (or adds a Conn Smythe), then there's just no way you keep either out. But as it stands, I don't see either player being integral to the history of the game. They aren't guys your grandkids should HAVE to know about. I watched Joseph play out of his mind in the playoffs, I watched Osgood turn into a wall in the finals, but both goalies played in the shadow of greatness.

As far as Hasek vs Belfour in that series, I thought Hasek outplayed Belfour. Buffalo didn't get derailed by a goalie, they got derailed by a turncoat Canadian and an American unfrozen gerbil lawyer. Buffalo had scoring by committee that year, but freaking Steve Yzerman had more goals than anyone on the Sabres that year and he got bounced in the second round! Buffalo's leading scorers were Jason Wooley and Alexei Zhitnik! They played well as a team, but they were built to fit into a budget, not to win a Championship. I still contend that Hasek with his .939 that year dragged them into the Finals.

 

[beantownmaniac]

I don't know how many European goaltenders would've made it to the NHL back then besides Vladislav Tretiak and Jiri Holecek. The issue with Sawchuk overall (not unlike with Guy Lafleur) is that the first five years of his career were incredible, but then he was kinda just there for the rest of it - with one or two more good years after leaving Detroit in 1955. Guys like Roy and Brodeur have a lot more than just 5-7 good seasons though.

I threw Sawchuk in there because of the shutouts. Dryden should be in the convo with Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur IMO.

 

[beantownmaniac]

No. That's my point. You can't look at goaltenders with smaller pads and masks and say that they have an advantage when they only have those things to off-set the advantage that the players have with size and strength (humans in general are getting bigger) and Synergy hockey sticks.

That's why I look at the things that would transfer to any era: Guys like Roy, Hasek, Fuhr, Smith, Sawchuk, Hall, Plante - they would be big game players in any era. Brodeur, as good as he is, might not function as well in a system that does not allow for him to break up a team's forecheck with his clearing shots. Even still, he's one of the greats.

That was a joke buddy. Kinda like talking about football with leather helmets.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm really on the fence about Joseph and Osgood, but if I had to choose I would say no to both right now. In my mind, this is the HOF test: You are an old crippled fuck, taking his grandson to Toronto to see the HOF. You can't wait to teach him about all the great players you yourself grew up watching, so he will understand the history of the game. You walk through the doors, you comb the halls, and... WHAT THE FUCK??? NO CHRIS OSGOOD? NO CURTIS JOSEPH?? NO FREAKING GARY GALLEY?!?!?!?!

See, it just sounds ridiculous. If Joseph wins even one Cup, or if Osgood wins that last one in '09 (or adds a Conn Smythe), then there's just no way you keep either out. But as it stands, I don't see either player being integral to the history of the game. They aren't guys your grandkids should HAVE to know about. I watched Joseph play out of his mind in the playoffs, I watched Osgood turn into a wall in the finals, but both goalies played in the shadow of greatness.

I think they should at least have something from Joseph's 1997 and 1998 series with Edmonton in the HOF. He was a bit of a badass giant killer.

As far as Hasek vs Belfour in that series, I thought Hasek outplayed Belfour. Buffalo didn't get derailed by a goalie, they got derailed by a turncoat Canadian and an American unfrozen gerbil lawyer. Buffalo had scoring by committee that year, but freaking Steve Yzerman had more goals than anyone on the Sabres that year and he got bounced in the second round! Buffalo's leading scorers were Jason Wooley and Alexei Zhitnik! They played well as a team, but they were built to fit into a budget, not to win a Championship. I still contend that Hasek with his .939 that year dragged them into the Finals.

Well, the Sabres were scoring by committee; it wasn't just one or two guys chipping in. The only series in the East in which they didn't score at least 3 goals per game was against Boston. Otherwise, they didn't really need Hasek's .939 (though it certainly made things easier!). They even split two games in the Conference Finals while Hasek was injured... or drunk or whatever. But Belfour was stopping at a rate of .941 in those Finals to Hasek's .939 (his isolated Finals numbers were the same as his overall).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dryden should be in the convo with Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur IMO.

He definitely should be (I think he's above Brodeur for sure), but the issue with him is the short career and relatively unspectacular play against the Soviets.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

I think they should at least have something from Joseph's 1997 and 1998 series with Edmonton in the HOF. He was a bit of a badass giant killer.




Well, the Sabres were scoring by committee; it wasn't just one or two guys chipping in. The only series in the East in which they didn't score at least 3 goals per game was against Boston. Otherwise, they didn't really need Hasek's .939 (though it certainly made things easier!). They even split two games in the Conference Finals while Hasek was injured... or drunk or whatever. But Belfour was stopping at a rate of .941 in those Finals to Hasek's .939 (his isolated Finals numbers were the same as his overall).

Joseph was pretty damn badass in Toronto as well. But everytime he suited up against Dallas, brix were shat.

lol, I vote for drunk...

just remember, Hasek's save percentage would be higher say.... ONE goal that should have been disallowed wasn't....

 

[quoipourquoi]

That was a joke buddy. Kinda like talking about football with leather helmets.

Haha! Once you read enough articles by paid journalists rambling about that same argument, you lose your awareness of what is humor! :p

 

[quoipourquoi]

Joseph was pretty damn badass in Toronto as well. But everytime he suited up against Dallas, brix were shat.

lol, I vote for drunk...

just remember, Hasek's save percentage would be higher say.... ONE goal that should have been disallowed wasn't....

Now I'm wondering if any other goalie took as much time off in the playoffs as Hasek... (1997, 1999, 2004, 2006, 2008). I don't recall Brodeur missing a playoff game since Terreri played some games against Boston in 1994.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Now I'm wondering if any other goalie took as much time off in the playoffs as Hasek... (1997, 1999, 2004, 2006, 2008). I don't recall Brodeur missing a playoff game since Terreri played some games against Boston in 1994.

I don't know, he sure did get flaky. All though, TO BE FAIR, he didn't really "take time off" in '08... he had a combination of injury trouble, and getting out played by a brick wall named Chris Osgood. Some people may dispute that, but the guy really did battle injuries all year, and you can just go ahead and ask Pittsburgh fans what they think of Chris Osgood for an outside opinion.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Actually, now that I look at the stats, it does look like Brodeur missed a lot of playoff time... specifically, between 2004 and 2011...

 

[beantownmaniac]

Haha! Once you read enough articles by paid journalists rambling about that same argument, you lose your awareness of what is humor! :p

One of the things that's an advantage for the players of old is the rules to make the game safer, and the advances in medical science. Orr's career probably would have been extended 8 years or so. When I think of all-time greats, I think of players who could play in any era, and go from there.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Actually, now that I look at the stats, it does look like Brodeur missed a lot of playoff time... specifically, between 2004 and 2011...

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Don't you get uppity with me!

 

[puckhead]

100!