Roy vs Hasek vs Brodeur

[Eddie_Shack]

 

[TheRobotDevil]

Wait are we talking NHL or Czech online hockey league

 

[TheRobotDevil]

To be fair Roy and Hasek both lead Marty in assault charges

 

[forty_three]

As a goalie, I look at it more than just stats. To me, the most important factors are:

- Does your team believe you will win for them?
- How wild are the swings between your best game and your worst one?
- You have a terrible game, how do you follow it up?
- What can you do that other goalies cannot?

Remember, Roy said "To be an NHL goalie you have to stop 90 of 100 shits, minimum. That's just to be good enough to get in the door. The difference between good and great is how many of the other ten you get to."

With that in mind, I rank them:
1) Marty
2) Patrick
3) Shooter Tutor
4) My son
5) every other goalie
6) Pocket Lint
7) Ray Emery's Necktie
8) Hasek

Patrick revolutionized the position, the first really successful butterfly goalie, and his example was improved upon by Marty. But for all Patrick did, the league never enacted a rule to counteract a part of his game. The trapezoid was aimed specifically at Marty and his puck handling.

Hasek was a freak of nature, but a terrible example of being a goalie. He quit on teams, he tried to make himself the story, he had really bad streaks and major temper tantrums. For everything he did right, he did something else horribly wrong. See: Ed Belfour and Ron Hextall.

Plus, any goalie stands in reverence at the guy who beat Sawchuk's record. That was the biggie. Anyone who gets half as many shutouts at that level is a God. Get more? C'mon.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

As a goalie, I look at it more than just stats. To me, the most important factors are:

- Does your team believe you will win for them?
- How wild are the swings between your best game and your worst one?
- You have a terrible game, how do you follow it up?
- What can you do that other goalies cannot?

Remember, Roy said "To be an NHL goalie you have to stop 90 of 100 shits, minimum. That's just to be good enough to get in the door. The difference between good and great is how many of the other ten you get to."

With that in mind, I rank them:
1) Marty
2) Patrick
3) Shooter Tutor
4) My son
5) every other goalie
6) Pocket Lint
7) Ray Emery's Necktie
8) Hasek

Patrick revolutionized the position, the first really successful butterfly goalie, and his example was improved upon by Marty. But for all Patrick did, the league never enacted a rule to counteract a part of his game. The trapezoid was aimed specifically at Marty and his puck handling.

Hasek was a freak of nature, but a terrible example of being a goalie. He quit on teams, he tried to make himself the story, he had really bad streaks and major temper tantrums. For everything he did right, he did something else horribly wrong. See: Ed Belfour and Ron Hextall.

Plus, any goalie stands in reverence at the guy who beat Sawchuk's record. That was the biggie. Anyone who gets half as many shutouts at that level is a God. Get more? C'mon.

Rep when I reset great list and post

 

[forty_three]

Rep when I reset great list and post

But would you have repped if I said Roy?

 

[TheRobotDevil]

But would you have repped if I said Roy?

Yes to me the Roy arguements is more valid than Hasek.To be honest I give Marty the edge between the two based on breaking the records while going through several rule changes and continuing to do so at his age.Otherwise its close to a draw

 

[elocomotive]

Plus, any goalie stands in reverence at the guy who beat Sawchuk's record. That was the biggie. Anyone who gets half as many shutouts at that level is a God. Get more? C'mon.

Records are as much a function of longevity as they are of greatness. Was Hank Aaron a better hitter than Ruth? No, he just played longer (and had longer seasons). By starts...

Hasek 81 SO, 714 starts = 11.3%
Brodeur 119 SO, 1,776 starts = 6.7%
Roy 66 SO, 1,003 starts = 6.6%

So Hasek shut out opponents almost TWICE as often as two of the best goalies in history. When you consider the defenders Marty had in front of him and the system in place as well, I just don't put him in the same conversation as Hasek and Roy. Hasek and Roy were the best of their time in their prime. Brodeur was bested by Hasek in his prime, and outlasted him in regards to health and since he was a few years younger.

If you are asking who would you rather have as a GM, I'd fault nobody for taking Brodeur at the top of that list b/c who wouldn't want his performance over 2 decades. If you are asking who was the best in their prime, Hasek beats Brodeur, because it is no coincidence that Brodeur never won a Vezina until Hasek "retired"/had injury problems and got old.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

IMO the vezina like Hasek is over rated .I think championships and records trump popularity contest hardware.Hasek never impressed me

 

[elocomotive]

IMO the vezina like Hasek is over rated .I think championships and records trump popularity contest hardware.Hasek never impressed me

I don't think championships is EVER a relevant stat when comparing players unless you are talking about the NBA, and even then it's dicey. It's a team game.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

I don't think championships is EVER a relevant stat when comparing players unless you are talking about the NBA, and even then it's dicey. It's a team game.

Normally I would agree but Marty and Roy played key roles in their championship runs.Also I am making a point that the records and championships are earned on the ice as opposed to an award that is decided by people off the ice.Hell Jose Theodore won a hart as well and Jim Carey won a vezina.Hasek and his style of play never impressed me.sorry I just can't even come close to having him in my top 5.FWIW Marty also leads them both in goals scored

 

[elocomotive]

Normally I would agree but Marty and Roy played key roles in their championship runs.Also I am making a point that the records and championships are earned on the ice as opposed to an award that is decided by people off the ice.Hell Jose Theodore won a hart as well and Jim Carey won a vezina.Hasek and his style of play never impressed me.sorry I just can't even come close to having him in my top 5.FWIW Marty also leads them both in goals scored

Cam Ward and Anti Niemi won a Cup. Looking at exceptions to the rule is not a compelling argument, nor does it discount those awards or achievements. In their moment in time, Carey and Theo were the best. Nobody is including them in this conversation b/c they didn't sustain it. It doesn't take anything away from what they did, nor does it make individual awards a farce. They are one measurement, as are championships. The difference is you win individual awards largely on your own merits, whereas team titles come largely from the group's merits.

To each his own. But Marty didn't win anything until Hasek was in decline and Hasek played most of his career without hall of famers roaming his blue lines. I understand if you think Marty is better, but to say Hasek is not in the same conversation is a little crazy to me.

 

[devils30mb]

Patrick revolutionized the position, the first really successful butterfly goalie, and his example was improved upon by Marty. But for all Patrick did, the league never enacted a rule to counteract a part of his game. The trapezoid was aimed specifically at Marty and his puck handling.

No it was Francois Allaire because he mentored Patrick Roy and got him to play that style.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

Cam Ward and Anti Niemi won a Cup. Looking at exceptions to the rule is not a compelling argument, nor does it discount those awards or achievements. In their moment in time, Carey and Theo were the best. Nobody is including them in this conversation b/c they didn't sustain it. It doesn't take anything away from what they did, nor does it make individual awards a farce. They are one measurement, as are championships. The difference is you win individual awards largely on your own merits, whereas team titles come largely from the group's merits.

To each his own. But Marty didn't win anything until Hasek was in decline and Hasek played most of his career without hall of famers roaming his blue lines. I understand if you think Marty is better, but to say Hasek is not in the same conversation is a little crazy to me.

Marty and Patrick in theory prime were rocks IMO Hasek was unorthodox at best.It may be as I played goal so long I look at stats and different traits more.But in no way did Hasek have near the leadership qualities as Marty or Roy,Nor do I recall him elevating his game like them two.I can understand the Stevens arguements but people need to take into account on top of stealing games with some amazing saves Martys puck handling skills dictated games.Like 43 said see the trapazoid.I view Hasek as more of a gimmick goalie.IMO Sawchuck makes makes my list over Hasek

 

[devils30mb]

Agree Hasek was an unorthodox goalie....but he had very good physical ability and that is why he was so effective when he played.

 

[devils30mb]

Martys puck handling skills dictated games.

Still does....Philly can attest to that in this playoffs. With all those simple dish offs to the D to help transition out of our end.

 

[TheRobotDevil]

Still does....Philly can attest to that in this playoffs. With all those simple dish offs to the D to help transition out of our end.

His ability to adapt to the Marty rule impressed me

 

[devils30mb]

His ability to adapt to the Marty rule impressed me

People great at what they do find a way to adapt.....
Marty obviously is greatness......yes I'm bias!

 

[forty_three]

Records are as much a function of longevity as they are of greatness. Was Hank Aaron a better hitter than Ruth? No, he just played longer (and had longer seasons). By starts...

Hasek 81 SO, 714 starts = 11.3%
Brodeur 119 SO, 1,776 starts = 6.7%
Roy 66 SO, 1,003 starts = 6.6%

So Hasek shut out opponents almost TWICE as often as two of the best goalies in history. When you consider the defenders Marty had in front of him and the system in place as well, I just don't put him in the same conversation as Hasek and Roy. Hasek and Roy were the best of their time in their prime. Brodeur was bested by Hasek in his prime, and outlasted him in regards to health and since he was a few years younger.

If you are asking who would you rather have as a GM, I'd fault nobody for taking Brodeur at the top of that list b/c who wouldn't want his performance over 2 decades. If you are asking who was the best in their prime, Hasek beats Brodeur, because it is no coincidence that Brodeur never won a Vezina until Hasek "retired"/had injury problems and got old.

Okay, but what about the rest of what I said?

No it was Francois Allaire because he mentored Patrick Roy and got him to play that style.

How many NHL wins does Allaire have?

Agree Hasek was an unorthodox goalie....but he had very good physical ability and that is why he was so effective when he played.

Hasek is the only person who ever lived (and who will ever live) who would be successful in that style. That's part of my issue. Trying to coach kids who see the "slinky spine spazzout" as a valid style is tough.

 

[devils30mb]

How many NHL wins does Allaire have?

None!

I would agree that Patrick Roy is the face of the revolution but Allaire was the mastermind and worked with Patrick Roy and other young quebec goalies to change the way goaltending is played today. This was why we had so many good quebec goalies come out.....Allaire's schooling/camps.

That said my view is it is Allaire who revolutionized it.

We can agree to disagree.