Rotation

[thecrow124]

So now that we have Burnett, what happens with our rotation? Who comes out of the rotation, or do we go with a six man rotation. Normally I am opposed to even entertaining the idea, but it might just make sense for us.

What do you guys think?

 

[sychmd]

bedard, mcdonald, burnett, karstens, morton should be our rotation if all are healthy.
bedard, mcd, karstens, morton because they are young and could be in our rotation for awhile. burnett can have mentor role and can be great trade bait at the deadline.
dont go with 6.
correia and lincoln battle in ST till morton healthy.
locke and owens are next on deck.

 

[element1286]

Correia would come out, but I don't know since I have a feeling Hurdle really likes him.

 

[Darkstone42]

bedard, mcdonald, burnett, karstens, morton should be our rotation if all are healthy.
bedard, mcd, karstens, morton because they are young and could be in our rotation for awhile. burnett can have mentor role and can be great trade bait at the deadline.
dont go with 6.
correia and lincoln battle in ST till morton healthy.
locke and owens are next on deck.

I'm pretty much all for this.

If (when) Bedard gets hurt, and while Morton is recovering, just go with whoever's pitching better between Lincoln and Correia. The other should either be in AAA or working in long relief.

We're paying Burnett more than anyone else, so he's going to be there.

Karstens and Morton were our two best pitchers last year, so they're in there.

McDonald's probably the most talented guy in our rotation, so he has to be there.

Bedard's good when he's healthy, so when he's healthy he should be there. But since he's never healthy, we'll have to make due with the leftovers.

 

[magnumo]

Assuming everyone is healthy and ready to go.....

- What I'd like to see: Bedard, Morton, Karstens, Burnett, McDonald

- What I'm afraid we WILL see: Burnett, Bedard, Correia, Morton, McDonald

 

[thedddd]

Sorry still not sold on Karstens. I still think last year was a fluke, no proof just my gut feeling.

I would love for this rotation to work out:
Bedard, Morton, McDonald, Burnett, Lincoln. With Locke ready to come in.

What we are going to see at the start:
Bedard, Karstens, Burnett, Correia, McDonald then when healthy Morton for Correia.

 

[sychmd]

i htink mcdonald will come in better condition, won't start the season hurt, and have a better idea of how to pitch.
he will be our sleeper and highest potential starter.
then morton if he can be healthy and have the mental makeup he showed last year.
i think borajas will have some positive impact on the staff if he stays engaged.
kartsens, we all hope he has the intangibles that allow a mediocre stuff guy that pounds the zone to succeed like his streak last year.
lastly, i didnt get to see many games last year, but when i did, our pitchers rarely got as big a strike zone as the opposing pitcher. hopefully, the league lets our unknown guys catch a little more of the close calls than we did last year and our K rate will increase, walks will decrease, and WHIP will decrease, and most importantly, confidence will increase.
just an ex-pitchers observation and my pet peeve with mlb umps.

 

[thecrow124]

I was thinking today of a possible different approach. Why not package one of our starters with Lincoln and a younger prospect like ZVR or Cain or someone else at that level and see if we can get Matt Garza from the Cubs. We would have him for at least 2 years and he could take us straight into the Cole/Taillon era. That would take our rotation from pretty good, where it is now, to dominant.

 

[element1286]

I was thinking today of a possible different approach. Why not package one of our starters with Lincoln and a younger prospect like ZVR or Cain or someone else at that level and see if we can get Matt Garza from the Cubs. We would have him for at least 2 years and he could take us straight into the Cole/Taillon era. That would take our rotation from pretty good, where it is now, to dominant.

Don't see that being enough.

 

[ramburgh]

would love to see garza or floyd added. if the pirates play well in the first half, those are the two names that i could see being targeted at the deadline. the cubs are rebuilding and the white sox are basically in the same boat.

 

[Darkstone42]

Don't see that being enough.

Neither do I, especially since the Cubs are an in-division foe.

 

[Etrius24]

I have to ask this, I hate to do it in a thread about the rotation but this keeps popping into my head so here goes:

Why not trade for a bat instead of an arm. I like Garza just fine... but this team needs offensive help too!

So why not package Lincoln and say Cain and even a expendable bat off the ML roster to another team and see what we can get in return that would be a noticable upgrade for the offense!

 

[sychmd]

we need a pitcher and a real hitter. better chance to get an up and comer hitter than an established one.
we have options to trade: gorkys, lincoln, the many over slot guys and even karstens/tabata/presley/locke/owens/jones/lambo(i still think he has potential) for the right young bat.
our 2014 team will be:
mccutcheon, marte, and either grossman/presly/tabata as our OF.
walker, mercer up the middle
staff of taillon, cole, mcdonald, morton, and one of the many prospects we have.
we need a C, 1B, 3B, and possibly a corner OF. (assuming alvarez is a bust - which i believe he will be our 1B in 2014 and a good one if we dont get one even better)

 

[thecrow124]

I have to ask this, I hate to do it in a thread about the rotation but this keeps popping into my head so here goes:

Why not trade for a bat instead of an arm. I like Garza just fine... but this team needs offensive help too!

So why not package Lincoln and say Cain and even a expendable bat off the ML roster to another team and see what we can get in return that would be a noticable upgrade for the offense!

First off it wouldn't take much to have a noticeable upgrade to our offense, but that does not mean it would be worth it. Packaging Lincoln and Cain and an iffy major league bat probably doesn't get the significant bat upgrade that I think we would all like. To achieve that, the conversation would probably start to with Jameson Taillon and then go on from there.
That is not to say that the right bat isn't out there to talk about that trade, but do you want to give up Taillon and others to get a true impact bat? I am not sure I would.

That brings me back to acquiring a pitcher, good pitching travels from stadium to stadium, good hitting doesn't always do that. I brought up Garza because I think that the Cubs would trade him if the right package were offered. On top of that, we could probably afford to extend him past the two year he has remaining, and having him as a number three in a couple years would be the makings of a dominant staff. As for this year, with him in the current rotation, we would probably have the best 1-12 staff in the Central.

 

[Etrius24]

I would love to have Garza... But the point about the Cubs no wanting to send him to a inter division rival is valid... Not to say that teams do not trade within their division... but it is much less likely.

And I am not sure they would have to give up Tallion

For example...Say some team needs a OF/1b bat and we send them Jones...and we send them a pitcher like Lincoln that could help them for 2012... We throw in a lesser prospect and we ask for something like a slightly better Robbie Grossman who is in the minors and will not be ready maybe until later this year.

I know that does not help the team in April... Which I would like...

And if the Reds were not in our division I would consider targetting them...They have 2 very good hitting first basemen... Alonso is not a superstar... but he is a damned good hitter that controls the strikezone...and right now he does not have a spot open at his best position that being first base...

The Reds would not want Jones...But maybe they would take Tabata and Lincoln????

If they were not in our division a deal might be more likely...But they have a bat they could trade...if the right deal presented itself.

 

[thecrow124]

I would love to have Garza... But the point about the Cubs no wanting to send him to a inter division rival is valid... Not to say that teams do not trade within their division... but it is much less likely.

And I am not sure they would have to give up Tallion

For example...Say some team needs a OF/1b bat and we send them Jones...and we send them a pitcher like Lincoln that could help them for 2012... We throw in a lesser prospect and we ask for something like a slightly better Robbie Grossman who is in the minors and will not be ready maybe until later this year.

I know that does not help the team in April... Which I would like...

And if the Reds were not in our division I would consider targetting them...They have 2 very good hitting first basemen... Alonso is not a superstar... but he is a damned good hitter that controls the strikezone...and right now he does not have a spot open at his best position that being first base...

The Reds would not want Jones...But maybe they would take Tabata and Lincoln????

If they were not in our division a deal might be more likely...But they have a bat they could trade...if the right deal presented itself.

San Diego Padres trade Mat Latos to Cincinnati Reds for Edinson Volquez, Yonder Alonso, two prospects - ESPN

Ummmm.......Who is this Alonso you speak of in the Reds organization? If you are speaking of Yonder Alonso, as you can see he was traded in the Matt Latos deal.

Now notice that he was in a trade for a dominant pitcher, not for a better hitter. Pitching is what everyone wants. The Reds offense is better than ours, but not by that much. Their pitching is better than ours but not by much. With Garza, our pitching is better than theirs.

For those that think my offer wasn't enough, look at the Latos deal. They get an injury prone, average pitcher, plus a light hitting 1B prospect and 2 other middling prospects for a bonified top of the rotation starter with 4 years of control. Garza is better than Latos, but only has 2 years of control. The Cubs are in full rebuild mode and would much prefer to trade Garza than extend him. The minor league system is pretty bare for the Cubs, so they are where we were just 4 years ago. Unloading to stock the minors. If they can get a major league ready pitcher and 1 "C" pitching prospect and a "C" hitting prospect, they would liekly take it, interdivision or not, especially the Pirates as the chance of Garza re-signing with us is very slim, so in 2 years at the most he would be gone from the division in all likelyhood. The Cubs aren't going to be competing in the next 2 years, so why not, if it is the best deal you can get for him.

 

[element1286]

San Diego Padres trade Mat Latos to Cincinnati Reds for Edinson Volquez, Yonder Alonso, two prospects - ESPN

Ummmm.......Who is this Alonso you speak of in the Reds organization? If you are speaking of Yonder Alonso, as you can see he was traded in the Matt Latos deal.

Now notice that he was in a trade for a dominant pitcher, not for a better hitter. Pitching is what everyone wants. The Reds offense is better than ours, but not by that much. Their pitching is better than ours but not by much. With Garza, our pitching is better than theirs.

For those that think my offer wasn't enough, look at the Latos deal. They get an injury prone, average pitcher, plus a light hitting 1B prospect and 2 other middling prospects for a bonified top of the rotation starter with 4 years of control. Garza is better than Latos, but only has 2 years of control. The Cubs are in full rebuild mode and would much prefer to trade Garza than extend him. The minor league system is pretty bare for the Cubs, so they are where we were just 4 years ago. Unloading to stock the minors. If they can get a major league ready pitcher and 1 "C" pitching prospect and a "C" hitting prospect, they would liekly take it, interdivision or not, especially the Pirates as the chance of Garza re-signing with us is very slim, so in 2 years at the most he would be gone from the division in all likelyhood. The Cubs aren't going to be competing in the next 2 years, so why not, if it is the best deal you can get for him.

1. I don't agree Garza is better than Latos, they are both #2 starters to me.

2. Alonso is consensus top 100 prospects

3. I don't agree that the Cubs are full rebuild mode, they don't have to be, they have money to do a rebuild on the fly, and their farm system isn't that bad.

If we are going to say Latos return = Garza's return, it would probably be Lincoln/McDonald, Grossman, ZvR/Cain, and Owens/Locke.

 

[sychmd]

i wouldn't give mcdonald.
i would give grossman and the rest to get a garza.
in order to do that, i woudl want to know i can extend garza for reaonable money and time to justify giving away that many chips. can't give up all that for just 2 years when we are really targeting 2014/15 anyways when taillon, cole, marte, walker, mccutch(if still around), hanrahan, meek, mcdonald are ready to make their mark with many other mlb average but key role players to fill in the gaps.

 

[magnumo]

At the conceptual level, I don't see Huntington trying to acquire any more established major league starting pitchers in the near term. Rather, I like the notion of targeting a team in need of pitching help in an effort to acquire a bat with difference-making potential.

- There are pitchers (major leaguers and prospects, starters and relief pitchers) whom the Pirates can afford to give up.

- Regardless of whether Bad-Alvarez or Good-Alvarez shows up this year, the team needs more offense.

At this point, Huntington needs to take a shot at acquiring another big bat. If and when he does, I gotta feeling that there will be a lot of hand-wringing over the player(s) traded away. And NH may not get it right..... but he's gotta try, IMO.

 

[sychmd]

At the conceptual level, I don't see Huntington trying to acquire any more established major league starting pitchers in the near term. Rather, I like the notion of targeting a team in need of pitching help in an effort to acquire a bat with difference-making potential.

- There are pitchers (major leaguers and prospects, starters and relief pitchers) whom the Pirates can afford to give up.

- Regardless of whether Bad-Alvarez or Good-Alvarez shows up this year, the team needs more offense.

At this point, Huntington needs to take a shot at acquiring another big bat. If and when he does, I gotta feeling that there will be a lot of hand-wringing over the player(s) traded away. And NH may not get it right..... but he's gotta try, IMO.

i agree with all your points, it would nice to get a stud pitcher, but we would have to give up way too much or get someone who had lots of ??????? like inconsistency, arm trouble, head case etc.
everyone always needs pitching, but our pitching starters and pen have continued to improve and when have reinforcements over the next few years in pitching.
a bat is more predictable and not as costly.
we have to see who really projects for us to keep and who still has upside that others would value and give up a bunch for one.
i hope we are getting close to a blockbuster this trade deadline or next winter, but we would be helped a lot if many of our prospects have breakout years and attract the interest of many teams giving us pursuers of us.