Remember when Wilt...

[BOTSLAYER]

I think Wilt is probably the GOAT Center, but I use different credentials for individual position lists than overall GOAT.

People can make what ever list they want and as long as they use consistent logic then they can not be wrong, it is when people use the same logic to give credit to 1 player and use that same logic to discredit another I am just like huh?

 

[HammerDown]

lolz...

HELL...for that matter Jabbar was more dominating at the center position than Russell ever was...I put Jabbar right there with Wilt...I would probably take Jabbar over Wilt due to his long arms and that devastating hook shot that NOBODY historically could ever challenge, that and Jabbar altered anything coming his way more so than Wilt did.

Tough call between Wilt and Jabbar...


In my OP..

Jabbar>Wilt>Russell


But those Celtic TEAMS were great, no doubt. They just played great TEAM D and spread the ball around so much on O they were tough to beat even by teams that had Wilt and Jabbar.

Kareem was a spider. True 7' 2" + and a shot that God can't block. All-time leading scorer, stabilizing force and Captain of Showtime. How can he not have the greatest career ever as a center?

Still as far as dominance at their peak, I'm going with The Big Aristotle, Wilt the Stilt and Hakeem a distant 3rd. Too bad Yao never panned out...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Yeah, and he played when George Mikan was a giant. The Worm was walking around in the trees still rebounding with the best.

Here is the problem arguing eras. You cannot prove that B.R. wouldn't have similar totals today. You can say he wouldn't but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

IMO, that time sucked in the NBA. - Hammer

Doesn't that diminish W.C. as well? Wilt flourished when George Mikan was a giant right?

 

[HammerDown]

Your right Hammer, the merger of the ABA to the NBA helped with parity, lead the NBA to a much better place..George Gervin was one hellva a player I don't see mentioned enough historically...he was unstoppable during his prime.

Absolutely. If Iceman played today, these little fanboys would be asking if he's the greatest ever. Him and Doc were doing things that no one had ever done before with a basketball. And they were doing it at the rim with defenders hanging off of them. I love Lebron but these guys didn't settle for 18' pullup jumpers, they drove the lane and mixed it up with the trees. Iceman, the Doctor, 'Nique... too bad these kids don't even know those names cause man were they fun to watch.

I want those days back!!!

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Absolutely. If Iceman played today, these little fanboys would be asking if he's the greatest ever. Him and Doc were doing things that no one had ever done before with a basketball. And they were doing it at the rim with defenders hanging off of them. I love Lebron but these guys didn't settle for 18' pullup jumpers, they drove the lane and mixed it up with the trees. Iceman, the Doctor, 'Nique... too bad these kids don't even know those names cause man were they fun to watch.

I want those days back!!!

Basketball was a contact sport back in the day.

 

[HammerDown]

Here is the problem arguing eras. You cannot prove that B.R. wouldn't have similar totals today. You can say he wouldn't but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

IMO, that time sucked in the NBA. - Hammer

Doesn't that diminish W.C. as well? Wilt flourished when George Mikan was a giant right?

The basic benchmark for greatness is that a player dominated an entire generation. No one, not even the most blinded Celtics fan will deny that Wilt did that. Wilt's size and skills would easily translate to any generation. There are players like Oscar, Havlicek, Cousy and West that were absolute greats and would be great in any era. I honestly don't believe the same is true of Russell. There's no offense to speak of and I just see him being devastated by guys much bigger and stronger and more skilled in today's game. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Bill Russell's mystique was largely orchestrated by a NBA that needed a face for that generation. It's laughable that they've put this guy on such a pedestal. He wasn't even the best player on any team he played for. He knows it and guys from that team know it. Hondo is a humble man for just biting his tongue.

 

[HammerDown]

Basketball was a contact sport back in the day.

It's so funny to watch NBA Hardwood Classics or videos on YouTube and be reminded how much those guys fought back then. Seems like Moses was suspended half his career. And there wasn't anyone Bird wouldn't scrap with. Guy ran his mouth and went toe-to-toe with anyone who wanted to.

Remember that time Ainge went at it with Tree Rollins and about got his finger bit off? 6' 2" white boy scrapping with a very angry 7' black man.

 

[Wazmankg]

I'm not quite old enough to have watched both in their prime, but Wilt was still a freak when I started following the game in 69-70 and he was in his mid 30s with beat up legs. There's footage out there of him blocking 2 of Jabbar's sky hooks on the same play at like 35 years old. He led the league in rebounding and FG% his final season. He'd be a force today in his prime. I can't really speak on Russell. He was pretty much done by then.

 

[HammerDown]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4oF34p3-rQ]Bird and dr j amazing fight! - YouTube[/ame]

Hilarious to hear Tommy Heinson and the homer Celtics announcer giving their side of that story. To hear them tell it, the Birdman got sucker punched by J.

Edit: And there's Moses with Bird in a headlock as J lands about 3 punches right to the face of Bird.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Look, I am not arguing GOAT status for B.R. But to say he was undersized is false. He was one inch shorter than Hakeem. He may not be a center today but that isn't the point. To see Rodman do it but then automatically discount the possibility that B.R. could do the same thing in today's game just doesn't hold any water. If he played today, nobody would be arguing his GOAT status but then again nobody would argue for Wilts either.

 

[trojanfan12]

They wouldn't win one game if they played the '14 Milwaukee Bucks a hundred fucking times. Cousy and Havlicek (and maybe Sam Jones and Tommy Heinson) could play in today's NBA. Russell? He has nothing of value to offer. No size, no offense and no selflessness. He'd be an angry little small forward with zero offensive skills who's a cancer in the locker room and can't rebound that well. Picture The Worm if he couldn't rebound and you have Bill Russell in today's NBA.

And you know it.

Actually, before he started concentrating solely on rebounding and defense, The Worm had a better offensive game than Russell.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Bird and dr j amazing fight! - YouTube

Hilarious to hear Tommy Heinson and the homer Celtics announcer giving their side of that story. To hear them tell it, the Birdman got sucker punched by J.

Edit: And there's Moses with Bird in a headlock as J lands about 3 punches right to the face of Bird.

Good thing Moses was holding Larry back!

 

[HammerDown]

Look, I am not arguing GOAT status for B.R. But to say he was undersized is false. He was one inch shorter than Hakeem. He may not be a center today but that isn't the point. To see Rodman do it but then automatically discount the possibility that B.R. could do the same thing in today's game just doesn't hold any water. If he played today, nobody would be arguing his GOAT status but then again nobody would argue for Wilts either.

HC2G, Hakeem was a true 7-footer and Russell, while listed at 6' 10", was measured at less than 6' 8" barefoot. Pictures of him with taller players corroborate that.

The Worm was taller than Russell.

 

[HammerDown]

Good thing Moses was holding Larry back!

I loved it when Bird took on Kareem and Kurt Rambis. At the same time.

Check this out. Sir Charles and Oakley really going at it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5tQN7Wvqac]1996 Charles Barkley vs Charles Oakley fight in preseason game - YouTube[/ame]

 

[trojanfan12]

Absolutely. If Iceman played today, these little fanboys would be asking if he's the greatest ever. Him and Doc were doing things that no one had ever done before with a basketball. And they were doing it at the rim with defenders hanging off of them. I love Lebron but these guys didn't settle for 18' pullup jumpers, they drove the lane and mixed it up with the trees. Iceman, the Doctor, 'Nique... too bad these kids don't even know those names cause man were they fun to watch.

I want those days back!!!

Don't forget The Hawk!! Connie Hawkins was Dr. J before Dr. J!!

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Actually, before he started concentrating solely on rebounding and defense, The Worm had a better offensive game than Russell.

Not according to points per game. D.R. highest: 16.0 B.R.: 18.9

D.R :4 years above 11 P.P.G. B.R.: 12 years above 11 P.P.G.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

I loved it when Bird took on Kareem and Kurt Rambis. At the same time.

Check this out. Sir Charles and Oakley really going at it.

1996 Charles Barkley vs Charles Oakley fight in preseason game - YouTube

Damn!

I am with you. I miss the old NBA. Say what you will about the BAD BOY Pistons (HATED THEM) but they made it interesting. Need to see that 30 for 30...

 

[HammerDown]

Not according to points per game. D.R. highest: 16.0 B.R.: 18.9

D.R :4 years above 11 P.P.G. B.R.: 12 years above 11 P.P.G.

Dennis was also an admitted drug-addicted clinically-retarded basket case. Russell obviously has better career rebound numbers (when the average height was 6' 5") but you have to admit, when Dennis was really on, hardly anyone has ever been as dominant on the boards. Maybe only Moses and Wilt?

 

[celticsintheoc]

the argument has always been that Russell was only winning because of the great team he had around him the same argument is being made about kobe by kobe haters .so ether they were both great or nether was and only won because of the team they had around them you cant have it both ways .

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

HC2G, Hakeem was a true 7-footer and Russell, while listed at 6' 10", was measured at less than 6' 8" barefoot. Pictures of him with taller players corroborate that.

The Worm was taller than Russell.

Not according to NBA stats. D.R. 6'7 B.R 6'10 And Hakeem was 6'10. (note: Now I am seeing 2 different heights for Hakeem. Google him and his bio on the right side of the page says 6'10. Maybe that is what he is now. The NBA stat site has him as a 7 footer. So my previous statements may be erroneous. And I am not going to try to guess height from an old picture. But feel free to post one. Would like to see it.)