QB comparisons

[rmilia1]

The point is, he's also won at the NFL level. He has "it" whatever "it" is. I get that he isn't the most polished QB, but it's hard to deny that he's something special.

Exactly. He has ALREADY WON at the NFL level so saying you cant win with him is disingenuous because its already been done. Most first year starters would take a 9-6 record and a playoff win every day all day. Posted this on another thread but a huge part of peoples bashing of Tebow is his completion percentage ( 46.5%) and thats valid but what few people realize or acknowledge is that in 2011 Denver took BY FAR more downfield shots per pass attempt than any other team in the NFL. The reasons for this were 2 fold ( one pro Tebow, one anti Tebow). Reason 1 is that he simply doesnt throw a good short ball. No one will ever argue that. Reason 2 is that he provides so many issues as a QB in the run game that it makes HUGE downfield plays easier to access AND Tebow ( despite his erratic short pass game) has a more than adequate deep ball. Tebow actually averaged almost 15 yards per completion in 2011 which ranked 1st in the NFL. I guarantee he could have completed 55% of his passes if Dnever had stuck with the short pass game which would still be subpar and wouldnt utilize him properly. He completed 46.5% BECAUSE HE WAS USED RIGHT and it equated to a division title and a playoff win.

 

[JDM]

I have never mentioned his completion percentage. I just said he can't throw and there's no upside in the slightest.

 

[wildturkey]

As an FYI the other 2 guys ( A and C) are John Elway and Johnny Unitas and their first year numbers. ( where they both lost MORE games than they won unlike Tebow who won his division and a playoff game)

That is an absolutely stupid comparison. Let's bring up guys who's first years played were in the 80s and 50s. FIFTIES for fuck's sake. You're cool and all but this thread is so troll worthy not even First Take will touch it

 

[threelittleturds]

Have you not been paying attention? The teams aren't holding his stats against him with any major concern. I'm sure almost every offensive coach is arrogant enough to think he can fix Tebow. Teams are not interested because of the circus that comes with Tebow. NFL coaches and GMs hate distractions, and even though it isn't Tebow's fault, he is a massive distraction to the team.

A few losses in Denver and a few losses in New York had most of the fans in an uproar and frenzy over how crazy it was that Tebow was not starting yet. Whichever team signs him as a backup is immediately going to field the same questions if they lose a few games they were supposed to win.

Potentially it may not happen in New England, Green Bay, Atlanta, and so on where QBs are set in stone... but if Denver and Elway didn't want to deal with the circus anymore even with Manning, that might show how the Pats, Packers, and Falcons see it too. Bottom line, a backup QB just isn't worth the distraction and media circus.

Is it unfair to Tebow? So what, life is unfair.

 

[wildturkey]

Have you not been paying attention? The teams aren't holding his stats against him with any major concern. I'm sure almost every offensive coach is arrogant enough to think he can fix Tebow. Teams are not interested because of the circus that comes with Tebow. NFL coaches and GMs hate distractions, and even though it isn't Tebow's fault, he is a massive distraction to the team.

A few losses in Denver and a few losses in New York had most of the fans in an uproar and frenzy over how crazy it was that Tebow was not starting yet. Whichever team signs him as a backup is immediately going to field the same questions if they lose a few games they were supposed to win.

Potentially it may not happen in New England, Green Bay, Atlanta, and so on where QBs are set in stone... but if Denver and Elway didn't want to deal with the circus anymore even with Manning, that might show how the Pats, Packers, and Falcons see it too. Bottom line, a backup QB just isn't worth the distraction and media circus.

Is it unfair to Tebow? So what, life is unfair.

Don't take this as an insult, but maybe you should be paying closer attention. NFL teams hate distractions? Absolute bullshit. If talent is there and it can benefit a team, then GMs will sign that player regardless. Mike Vick, Ben Rothlesberger, Ray Lewis, Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, etc etc. The list goes on and on. All had off field issues or in TO's case, just being a total douche, yet teams kept them on. Why? Those are all media circuses so how do they stay on rosters? Because there isn't a real distraction. It's mostly media that gets worked up about it. Football management cares about one thing, can this guy perform on the field so I can keep my job as a coach/GM?

 

[threelittleturds]

Don't take this as an insult, but maybe you should be paying closer attention. NFL teams hate distractions? Absolute bullshit. If talent is there and it can benefit a team, then GMs will sign that player regardless. Mike Vick, Ben Rothlesberger, Ray Lewis, Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, etc etc. The list goes on and on. All had off field issues or in TO's case, just being a total douche, yet teams kept them on. Why? Those are all media circuses so how do they stay on rosters? Because there isn't a real distraction. It's mostly media that gets worked up about it. Football management cares about one thing, can this guy perform on the field so I can keep my job as a coach/GM?

Why would I be insulted?

You listed a bunch of guys who can/could produce as starters and all produce at a very high level. It'll be a lot more difficult to toss out names of mediocre and backup players who inspire NFL teams to ignore the distractions.

T.O. is a great example of both sides. Eventually they get sick of his shit and fire him, but someone else snatches him up hoping he'll start to behave but eventually they get tired of his shit and fire him too.

Being a distraction gets you unemployed in the NFL. Being able to put up Top 5-10 stats at your position gets you a job again... Tebow isn't Top 5-10.

 

[wildturkey]

Why would I be insulted?

You listed a bunch of guys who can/could produce as starters and all produce at a very high level. It'll be a lot more difficult to toss out names of mediocre and backup players who inspire NFL teams to ignore the distractions.

T.O. is a great example of both sides. Eventually they get sick of his shit and fire him, but someone else snatches him up hoping he'll start to behave but eventually they get tired of his shit and fire him too.

Being a distraction gets you unemployed in the NFL. Being able to put up Top 5-10 stats at your position gets you a job again... Tebow isn't Top 5-10.

Doesn't matter if they're starters. Just that they're productive. The Cards just drafted Tyrann Mathieu. There's another example. How about Donte Stallworth? Or the non criminal route, DeAngelo Hall, who runs his mouth nonstop and is good for at least one "I wish he'd stfu" story from the media every year. "Distractions" aren't really distractions for NFL teams. They're media talking points.

 

[JDM]

Tebow hasn't shown near enough evidence that he'll be productive to be worth it, though.

 

[wilwhite]

In the big picture Tebow is better off where he is. He definitely had "it" (much like Vick did briefly), but it looked more like miracles than quality football. Very few career professionals (outside of clergy) like to stake their careers on continued miracles, and GMs are no exception. Apparently everyone in the NFL believes they've already seen Tebow's ceiling (which wasn't the case with Elway and Unitas, obviously). And if they're right, then if Tebow started for two full years his stats would stay about the same... except for the wins. At least this way he looks like a guy who was amazing when given a shot and then unfairly persecuted, which is better than being a guy who had lots of chances and just wasn't very good.

Tebow did one thing for the Jets probably nobody else could do - he got the wide receivers to come out in strong support of Sanchez.

 

[rmilia1]

That is an absolutely stupid comparison. Let's bring up guys who's first years played were in the 80s and 50s. FIFTIES for fuck's sake. You're cool and all but this thread is so troll worthy not even First Take will touch it

Whats wrong with comparing first years starting in the league??? What relevance is when they were played??? If anything Id wager that its tougher NOW to be productive since defensive schemes are so much more difficult than they were in the past.

 

[wilwhite]

Id wager that its tougher NOW to be productive since defensive schemes are so much more difficult than they were in the past.

I'll take that wager. So will Cam, Wilson, Tannehill, Dalton, RGIII, Luck, Bradford, Ryan, and Flacco - just off the top of my head.

(FYI, prior to Peyton Manning, no rookie had ever passed for 3000 yards or had more than 22 total TDs, and the only one with a completion % over 58 was Marino.)

 

[threelittleturds]

Doesn't matter if they're starters. Just that they're productive. The Cards just drafted Tyrann Mathieu. There's another example. How about Donte Stallworth? Or the non criminal route, DeAngelo Hall, who runs his mouth nonstop and is good for at least one "I wish he'd stfu" story from the media every year. "Distractions" aren't really distractions for NFL teams. They're media talking points.

OK, have you noticed anything about all of the guys you mentioned? With the exception of Big Ben and Ray Ray who were coming off Super Bowl wins, every one of them has been traded or released because of the distraction they caused to the team. I'm really baffled that you can take such a ridiculous stance that teams don't care when these guys were all released or traded for their issues. Unless they just won a Super Bowl.

Really? You're going to keep harping to me like a broken record about how the NFL execs do not care even though with certain exceptions they all lost their jobs for being a distraction. Why? Because they got picked up again that proves that NFL execs don't care in your eyes? They wouldn't even be available in the first place if NFL execs don't care. That fact alone should tell you how wrong you are... but I doubt it will. You're confusing some execs hoping that a "fresh start" will help a player get back on track as the NFL execs not caring about distractions. Guys like T.O., Chad Johnson, Moss, DeAngelo Hall have been released multiple times because of the distractions they cause, the same guys you claim don't give a shit apparently do give a shit because after time they got sick of the distraction those players become and cut them too.

 

[wilwhite]

Guys like T.O., Chad Johnson, Moss, DeAngelo Hall have been released multiple times because of the distractions they cause,

Not really. The Bengals put up with Ochocinco for 10 years and only let him go when his production dipped (turns out he only had one year left in his career anyway). T.O fought hard to leave the 49ers, even voiding the last four years of his contract (although the Eagles and Cowboys both dumped him while he was still productive). The Raiders gave up the farm to pry Moss from the Vikings (but his production was atrocious); NE brought him back to productivity but released him once he wasn't productive any more.

Out of all that, T.O. was the only one who was suspended/released when productive. But even in Philadelphia, he was a distraction within the team even more than outside of it. A Tebow distraction is in the stands and the media more than in the locker room - it's not like he's ripping his teammates and coaches all the time. He just doesn't have the QB skills to stick on a squad. If he agrees to play TE, I bet a team snaps him up without a second thought.

 

[wildturkey]

OK, have you noticed anything about all of the guys you mentioned? With the exception of Big Ben and Ray Ray who were coming off Super Bowl wins, every one of them has been traded or released because of the distraction they caused to the team. I'm really baffled that you can take such a ridiculous stance that teams don't care when these guys were all released or traded for their issues. Unless they just won a Super Bowl.

Really? You're going to keep harping to me like a broken record about how the NFL execs do not care even though with certain exceptions they all lost their jobs for being a distraction. Why? Because they got picked up again that proves that NFL execs don't care in your eyes? They wouldn't even be available in the first place if NFL execs don't care. That fact alone should tell you how wrong you are... but I doubt it will. You're confusing some execs hoping that a "fresh start" will help a player get back on track as the NFL execs not caring about distractions. Guys like T.O., Chad Johnson, Moss, DeAngelo Hall have been released multiple times because of the distractions they cause, the same guys you claim don't give a shit apparently do give a shit because after time they got sick of the distraction those players become and cut them too.

You're making my argument for me.

With the exception of Big Ben and Ray Ray who were coming off Super Bowl wins, every one of them has been traded or released because of the distraction they caused to the team.

Traded or released and picked up by another team. Why? Because someone believed that person's talent could still be productive on a football field. The distraction element of any player is largely irrelevant to NFL teams. That's my point. I've cited numerous players but there's far more than that. You can go down the roster list of every team and find situations where a player might have done something that may be considered a distraction. But teams employ them as long as they're productive. When they release them, its when they are no longer productive, just like any other player. What you're talking about is team chemistry, how a player interacts with his teammates. I'm talking about distractions, instances outside of the football field that the media focuses on. To NFL teams, all that is just background noise. There's a difference. Don't confuse the two.

 

[wilwhite]

But there are guys who are such distractions they're run from the league regardless of talent. See Titus Young. (Notice, though, that he wasn't even a public distraction.)

 

[wildturkey]

But there are guys who are such distractions they're run from the league regardless of talent. See Titus Young. (Notice, though, that he wasn't even a public distraction.)

That's different. That's a chemistry locker room issue. He'd quit on routes, argue with coaches and players, etc etc. That's a football issue affecting his productivity on the field. I'm talking about distractions, media driven circuses dealing events in a player's life, how he interacts with the media itself, etc, which is how this discussion came up because it was in reference to the media circus around Tebow.

 

[threelittleturds]

You're making my argument for me.



Traded or released and picked up by another team. Why? Because someone believed that person's talent could still be productive on a football field. The distraction element of any player is largely irrelevant to NFL teams. That's my point. I've cited numerous players but there's far more than that. You can go down the roster list of every team and find situations where a player might have done something that may be considered a distraction. But teams employ them as long as they're productive. When they release them, its when they are no longer productive, just like any other player. What you're talking about is team chemistry, how a player interacts with his teammates. I'm talking about distractions, instances outside of the football field that the media focuses on. To NFL teams, all that is just background noise. There's a difference. Don't confuse the two.

LOL, you're making my argument for me. At this point I've decided you're just trolling. Carry on. Riddle me this troll, if the NFL doesn't care... why were these guys even available in the first place? Yeah, I win, Le Fin. Troll

 

[wildturkey]

LOL, you're making my argument for me. At this point I've decided you're just trolling. Carry on. Riddle me this troll, if the NFL doesn't care... why were these guys even available in the first place? Yeah, I win, Le Fin. Troll

Can't think up legit response so other guy is a troll. Nice showing.

 

[Gatorchip]

Tebow was never the off-season QB practicing with the first team unlike those he is compared against.

Probably won't ever happen either. Damn shame.

 

[USCDoom]

Now I feel dumb...

Anyone want to take a guess how these guys ended up?

Guy A
1 - 284 Carries - 1,011 Yards - 3.6YPC - 7 TDs
2 - 332 Carries - 1,207 Yards - 3.6YPC - 11 TDs

Guy B
1 - 294 Carries - 1,429 Yards - 4.9YPC - 7 TDs
2 - 319 Carries - 1,025 Yards - 3.2YPC - 3 TDs

Guy C
1 - 160 Carries - 697 Yards - 4.4YPC - 11TDs
2 - 266 Carries - 1,014 Yards - 3.8YPC - 9TDs