prospect update for dummies

[_phiLLies_]

there is no doubt amaro is one of the worst, if not the worst GM in baseball. but even with that said, one can't just skip over anything decent he has helped do over the years.. like trading for oswalt, halladay and lee. he also managed to keep dom brown while doing so, who was a huge prospect. the 2011 team was the best phils team ever. they couldn't get the job done, not amaro. the 2010 team was also extremely good.

amaro can be blamed for his poor extensions, returns in trades and unwillingness to start young players/rebuild sooner, but he didn't run the team into the ground. it's not his fault halladay's career just ended, or that lee is having issues, or that howard fucked up his leg, or that utley developed a condition. while these guys are/were aging, they weren't THAT far along to blow up so quickly.

a lot of GM's would have done the same as him (keeping the core.) it failed miserably because of injuries. this is the phils 3rd losing season in a row. when the hell did we turn into the yankees? we're not. TEAMS LOSE. fans act like this is hell and we haven't had a winning season since the 90's.

fans can vent all they want. but it's counterproductive to keep bitching about the same things over and over, especially if you're wrong about some of those things. then it just becomes incorrect rambling.

and when talking about amaro, it always has to be said the fans supported these moves when we were winning. since then, they have flipped the script and act like it's all amaro's fault. 99% of the fans wanted howard signed. they wanted jroll back. they wanted utley to retire a phillie. they love ruiz. and the list goes on.

while this stuff goes on, i'm looking at the future. i did not want howard extended. i wanted his arb to run out, then the phils could have decided. if they did that, they would have seen the declining numbers and they could have went with someone else. i spent so much time arguing with people that his money would be a huge negative in the very near future, only to be called an idiot. i said back around 2012 that rollins' defense was declining and he lost a step, it was important to trade him now. same thing when i mentioned trading lee for pederson several years ago. lee was a superstar pitcher, pederson just a kid at single A. shit doesn't last long, and now look at them.

so i have a hard time when fans continually look at the present and bitch. if you can't see some of these things and evaluate them properly, then you shouldn't be posting as if you know everything that's going on. like i've said before.. fans do not want to hear the negative when you're winning, just like they don't want to hear the positive when you're losing. that's not being a real fan. that's just being clueless.

 

[_phiLLies_]

opinions are great. but when something is a fact and you try to turn it into an opinion, it becomes foolish. for example, it's always been my opinion inciarte and herrera are just as good, if not better, than revere. i was extremely disappointed when the phils let inciarte head back to arizona. just as i was extremely happy they didn't make the same mistake with herrera this year.

but it's a fact revere is not worth much at all and the phils were lucky to get anything for him. so to complain about anything we received, let alone two young pitchers, is just flat out wrong and looks foolish. revere is a noodle armed outfielder with non-existant pop. his whole game revolves around his steals. these are the stats this year..

revere: 371 AB/.294 avg/.330 obp/.699 ops - 13 doubles/6 triples/1 hr/24 steals
herrera: 297 AB/.283 avg/.312 obp/.736 ops - 21 doubles/3 triples/5 hr/9 steals
inciarte: 310 AB/.294 avg/.321 obp/.711 ops - 17 doubles/2 triples/3 hr/10 steals

inciarte is 24, herrera 23 and revere 27. inciarte is a superior defender to both, while herrera has the most offensive potential. revere sits in the middle. herrera and inciarte have little to no trade value at all.. and they are significantly younger and cheaper. revere is arb eligible next season and will possibly make 6 million or so?

it's not good. there's not much value at all. that's a fact. i've seen many clueless fans say "that's all we got for a .300 hitter? what is ruben doing?!" that's just absurd. it's wrong on multiple levels and it's not an opinion.

 

[_phiLLies_]

you seem like a nice guy retro, but you can shove that warning up your ass. straight up. it's a baseball forum. you want to keep calling amaro a retard, idiot or whatever.. over and over and over and over and over again with very little realistic baseball talk. and it's perfectly fine?

i rudely, somewhat, call people out for what i view as poor, misleading posts while discussing baseball.. and i get threats of being banned? ok then, feel free to ban. as i said, i certainly do not care.

 

[northeastphillyguy]

you seem like a nice guy retro, but you can shove that warning up your ass. straight up. it's a baseball forum. you want to keep calling amaro a retard, idiot or whatever.. over and over and over and over and over again with very little realistic baseball talk. and it's perfectly fine?

i rudely, somewhat, call people out for what i view as poor, misleading posts while discussing baseball.. and i get threats of being banned? ok then, feel free to ban. as i said, i certainly do not care.

You are clueless phiLLies. You have a false ego about yourself as well. By attacking other peoples opinions
you are asking for responses that will not be favorable. Retro does not attack other members who post here
about baseball. Fans can always attack their teams and their players and management, we pay for that right. But you are making things personable. Time to grow up PhiLLies! You should apologize to Retro and this entire group
of posters for your rudeness! No one is questioning your baseball knowledge. Your demeanor is the offender.

So I suggest that you move on to another posting community that will tolerate your immature ways. But,of course you could apologize and improve upon your approach in the future. Which is it?

 

[Retroram52]

You were doing fine _phillies_ with every post on here until you decided to do what Northeast has stated. Sorry. Personal attacks are not tolerated and you are now done here.

 

[jvett77]

_phillies_,

On Leaderboards, for 50 NL outfielders with 200 PAs, Revere ranks 20th with a WAR of 1.7. Right away you know there's value there. Revere ranks 7th in average at .298, 5th in hits with 109 , 2nd in triples at 6 , 3rd in SBs at 24, 15th in runs with 49, and in the middle, 25th, for OBP at .334.

With 45 or so outfielders on 15 NL teams, Revere can certainly make a positive contribution immediately on most teams and therefore has definite trade value. Revere's noodle arm is a drawback but it only occasionally affects the outcome of a game.

It was easy to trade Revere at this time for no immediate value because the Phillies have been in somewhat of a desperate rebuild situation, and teams knew they could shove anything down Amaro's throat. With the development of Cesar, Odubel, and Galvis, and assuming their growth continues, we won't likely see a negative impact of this trade. That's how I see it.

 

[Omar 382]

Lol

 

[Cedrique]

How can you ban the guy that the team is named after?

 

[_phiLLies_]

me? apologize? no thanks. forums are a place for specific discussion related to a topic. some of you people are horribly butchering that topic. i may sound rude about it because it's the nature of my personality to be blunt, but it remains on point to the subject at hand.

threatening to ban me (when i'm one of the few people to give legit updates and word on what's going on with the team here) because others look foolish ranting about incorrect things.. it's laughable. even more so to label it "personal attacks." please, do continue to call a grown man with a degree a "retard".. among other things. that is apparently more civil and correct simply because he's not here to read it.

as i said, if you like to ban me, feel free. at least man up and say it's because i'm pointing out the stupidity of others here when it comes to the topic of baseball. don't BS and make it sound like i'm going out of my way to just insult people about random things.

 

[_phiLLies_]

you label my post bullshit jvett. OK. the phils have been trying to get rid of revere for a while now. if you noticed, the twins didn't ask for much back from the phils when he was younger and cheaper. as mentioned, the angels didn't even want to give up a minor league reliever for him.. when they clearly needed outfield help. that's common sense on what his value is.

he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player.

 

[northeastphillyguy]

you label my post bullshit jvett. OK. the phils have been trying to get rid of revere for a while now. if you noticed, the twins didn't ask for much back from the phils when he was younger and cheaper. as mentioned, the angels didn't even want to give up a minor league reliever for him.. when they clearly needed outfield help. that's common sense on what his value is.

he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player.

I hope Juan Pierre doesn't read this post.

 

[_phiLLies_]

You are clueless phiLLies. You have a false ego about yourself as well. By attacking other peoples opinions
you are asking for responses that will not be favorable. Retro does not attack other members who post here
about baseball. Fans can always attack their teams and their players and management, we pay for that right. But you are making things personable. Time to grow up PhiLLies! You should apologize to Retro and this entire group
of posters for your rudeness! No one is questioning your baseball knowledge. Your demeanor is the offender.

So I suggest that you move on to another posting community that will tolerate your immature ways. But,of course you could apologize and improve upon your approach in the future. Which is it?

immature ways? i've said these things nicely, numerous times. amaro has been relieved of whatever trade/sign/extension duties he had quite a while ago. gillick has been calling the shots. some of you choose to ignore this completely and continue to ride amaro's sack for any transaction that happens. how is that your "opinion?" it's WRONG. after saying it politely a bunch of times, there's no nice way to tell you.. YOU'RE WRONG.

it has nothing to do with ego. when a poster who follows minor league baseball, fans of the other team and basically every professional writer says the return for hamels was good/great/solid/big.. then guess what? it is!! saying it sucks or isn't good and then not backing it up with any type of facts or knowledge is just embarrassing. at least state you don't like it for reason A or reason B, then it can sit in the line of an opinion.

my demeanor, my attitude.. if i'm here, it's to read, write and discuss baseball.. not witness a continual bitchfest about things that aren't even correct. no one is saying you have to know this or that to perfection. but if you're going to write about it, post about it and lay claim to it.. make sure you at least know what you're discussing properly. it's no different on any forum.

 

[Cedrique]

you label my post bullshit jvett. OK. the phils have been trying to get rid of revere for a while now. if you noticed, the twins didn't ask for much back from the phils when he was younger and cheaper. as mentioned, the angels didn't even want to give up a minor league reliever for him.. when they clearly needed outfield help. that's common sense on what his value is.

he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player.

I'm glad you weren't banned and I have said before that I can see how Revere may not be part of the Phillies long term rebuilding plans, but "he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player" seems like a pretty weak argument when Jvett actually took the time to show his ranking in WAR among other outfielders.

 

[Retroram52]

me? apologize? no thanks. forums are a place for specific discussion related to a topic. some of you people are horribly butchering that topic. i may sound rude about it because it's the nature of my personality to be blunt, but it remains on point to the subject at hand.

threatening to ban me (when i'm one of the few people to give legit updates and word on what's going on with the team here) because others look foolish ranting about incorrect things.. it's laughable. even more so to label it "personal attacks." please, do continue to call a grown man with a degree a "retard".. among other things. that is apparently more civil and correct simply because he's not here to read it.

as i said, if you like to ban me, feel free. at least man up and say it's because i'm pointing out the stupidity of others here when it comes to the topic of baseball. don't BS and make it sound like i'm going out of my way to just insult people about random things.

That's rich. You have some serious personal psychosocial blindness even when the evidence is presented to you about your disposition and approach to posting. As stated before a number of times and was adequately presented, the warning I gave you has nothing to do with your knowledge of baseball or calling out people's ignorance or lack of knowledge. And since you have accused me of being a dunce, it is plainly obvious that you are oblivious to your disposition and how you treat others making you a complete psychosocial idiot.

You disregard absolutely everything I have recently replied to you because of your blindness. I think you need some serious psychosocial help. And BTW, I can be just as blunt. Also, if you throw out that you have a degree perhaps you should live up to its edict of having all rights and privileges contained therein. Perhaps you can tell me why that is placed on the diploma. Or I doubt you understand its ramifications.Just for the record. I hold three Masters' degrees and you sir exhibit behavior that has clinical ramifications.

There are ways to get your point across on these boards without being oblivious to your over-exaggerated opinion of your self and skills and coming across as a complete asshole. Once again, nobody is questioning your knowledge base and jvett, omar, and Cedrique indeed like your knowledge base. This about your psychosocial blindness and egomanical, in-your-face approach that disregards the right for others to have an opinion and express it within a forum quorum.

So once again perhaps you can join us in a manner than you apparently have no clue how to do or you can sit for awhile and think it over. The choice is yours. Nobody is interested in discussing much with someone of your ilk in its present state.

 

[_phiLLies_]

I hope Juan Pierre doesn't read this post.

juan pierre was significantly better than revere. he had years when his obp pushed into the .360/.370 mark.

I'm glad you weren't banned and I have said before that I can see how Revere may not be part of the Phillies long term rebuilding plans, but "he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player" seems like a pretty weak argument when Jvett actually took the time to show his ranking in WAR among other outfielders.

thanks for the comment, appreciate it. but i'm sure i will be by the end of the day.

there are only 52 qualified outfielders in the league. revere ranks 29th in obp, 41st in doubles, 43rd in ops, 43rd in walks, 45th in slugging and 51st in homers. his WAR value is largely tied in to his average, steals and dead average defense (which improved from negative because he partially moved to the corner.)

the whole issue with this is.. it's a fact he's not valued. the twins did not want him and the phils do not want him. the majority of MLB had zero interest. why? because younger guys like the above mentioned inciarte and herrera can basically do the same, if not better, at a fraction of the price. simple rule 5 guys. when a team truly needs outfield help and refuses to part with a simple minor league pitcher.. that tells you all you need to know. the phils caught the jays in a buying frenzy and took slight advantage of them. he will not remain on that team for long at all. you can count on that.

 

[Cedrique]

juan pierre was significantly better than revere. he had years when his obp pushed into the .360/.370 mark.


thanks for the comment, appreciate it. but i'm sure i will be by the end of the day.

there are only 52 qualified outfielders in the league. revere ranks 29th in obp, 41st in doubles, 43rd in ops, 43rd in walks, 45th in slugging and 51st in homers. his WAR value is largely tied in to his average, steals and dead average defense (which improved from negative because he partially moved to the corner.)

the whole issue with this is.. it's a fact he's not valued. the twins did not want him and the phils do not want him. the majority of MLB had zero interest. why? because younger guys like the above mentioned inciarte and herrera can basically do the same, if not better, at a fraction of the price. simple rule 5 guys. when a team truly needs outfield help and refuses to part with a simple minor league pitcher.. that tells you all you need to know. the phils caught the jays in a buying frenzy and took slight advantage of them. he will not remain on that team for long at all. you can count on that.

Actually what I read was that the Phils wanted a rookie reliever who is pitching pretty well with the Angels (Trevor Gott) but the Angels tried to offer them a "simple" minor leaguer and the Phils apparently refused. I agree that Revere may not be on the Jays long though. I've always thought a guy like him would be more valuable somewhere like San Diego, but for some reason their crazy ownership is going after people like Matt Kemp. I'm always amazed at how some of these teams don't play to the strengths of their ballpark.

 

[Retroram52]

Cedrique, when are you going to get an acceptable Avatar?

 

[_phiLLies_]

That's rich. You have some serious personal psychosocial blindness even when the evidence is presented to you about your disposition and approach to posting. As stated before a number of times and was adequately presented, the warning I gave you has nothing to do with your knowledge of baseball or calling out people's ignorance or lack of knowledge. And since you have accused me of being a dunce, it is plainly obvious that you are oblivious to your disposition and how you treat others making you a complete psychosocial idiot.

You disregard absolutely everything I have recently replied to you because of your blindness. I think you need some serious psychosocial help. And BTW, I can be just as blunt. Also, if you throw out that you have a degree perhaps you should live up to its edict of having all rights and privileges contained therein. Perhaps you can tell me why that is placed on the diploma. Or I doubt you understand its ramifications.Just for the record. I hold three Masters' degrees and you sir exhibit behavior that has clinical ramifications.

There are ways to get your point across on these boards without being oblivious to your over-exaggerated opinion of your self and skills and coming across as a complete asshole. Once again, nobody is questioning your knowledge base and jvett, omar, and Cedrique indeed like your knowledge base. This about your psychosocial blindness and egomanical, in-your-face approach that disregards the right for others to have an opinion and express it within a forum quorum.

So once again perhaps you can join us in a manner than you apparently have no clue how to do or you can sit for awhile and think it over. The choice is yours. Nobody is interested in discussing much with someone of your ilk in its present state.

the problem you're not understanding is, YOU'RE WRONG. it's not your opinion. i 100% have stated nicely, respectfully, politely.. numerous times.. what is going on. in your case, you choose to ignore it and keep dogging amaro for things he has nothing to do with.

just like the recent thread about harrison. i see you're calling the phils "stupid" and saying they "gave away hamels." what are you talking about?! they took harrison and his contract as a way to get more in return with the other guys. they essentially just spent money to buy prospects with the intention to help the farm, and eventually the team. why in the world would you call them stupid for wanting to spend THEIR money to improve the team? would you rather they didn't take harrison's contract, and the rangers removed.. lets say alfaro from the deal? you should be thrilled they are willing to spend to bring in more talent (just like the jailyn ortiz signing.)

same thing for implying they just handed over hamels. three top 70 prospects and a couple young pitchers are not enough for you? feel free to explain what you would have preferred, what deal you could have worked.

on no level is taking on cash to gain more/better prospects stupid. just like saying the phils gave him away is absurd.

you can't just say whatever you want, claim it as opinion and then not back it up with any logic. i'm not going to head over to a political forum and say "obama is an idiot." then get mad when people want the reasoning behind by comment.

 

[Retroram52]

Once again, when you get the issue at hand instead of hiding behind other comments than I'll discuss my comments you are referring.

 

[jvett77]

you label my post bullshit jvett. OK. the phils have been trying to get rid of revere for a while now. if you noticed, the twins didn't ask for much back from the phils when he was younger and cheaper. as mentioned, the angels didn't even want to give up a minor league reliever for him.. when they clearly needed outfield help. that's common sense on what his value is.

he is a straight up singles hitter who has zero extra base power and doesn't draw walks. the only reason he's even in the league is because he can steal some bases. if not for that one crucial part? he wouldn't even be a bench player.

I am aware of Revere's power deficiency. But he gets on base 1/3 of the time. Is that an important stat? Obviously you don't think so. Look at Revere's two best seasons 2012 and 2014, His hits + BBs - runs scored = LOB which = over 100 times. That one factor that translates into the teams poor run differential. So Revere is available to score runs 1/3 of the time he goes to the plate, vital for a leadoff hitter. VALUE. Whether you like it or not. His SBs turn 1/4 of his singles and BBs into a man in scoring position. VALUE. Too bad the lineup behind him didn't do their jobs very often. You can't judge Revere like you would hitters in the middle of a lineup.

MN 2012 150h+29bb = 179ob - 70 runs = 109 times lob. > MN last place 66-96, -131 run diff
PHL 2014 184+13bb = 197ob - 71 runs = 126 times lob. > PHL last place 73-89, -68 run diff