POLL} The Best Overall Hitter In The Past 30 Years ?......

[BallsOfFurry]

If it lasts for 3 years, then I'm happy.

I agree actually watching the games and players in action is what it's about.
It's a game of statistics though and we'll always judge by excellence over time.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Just another way it's obtuse and contrived.
Total bases and OPS tell the story quite well.

They weigh it that way for a reason though. It's not like they randomly came up with the formula. It's what best correlates to runs scored. And really, arguing wOBA against OPS is splitting hairs. Both stats combine getting on base and total bases. One simply adds them together, the other puts more weight on one and then adds them together. Dismissing wOBA as contrived and obtuse, while championing OPS is stupid. Take a look at last year's OPS and wOBA team rankings. There's barely any difference. 28 out of 30 teams are within 2 spots in the rankings for each stat and 24 out of 30 are within 1 spot.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

They weigh it that way for a reason though. It's not like they randomly came up with the formula. It's what best correlates to runs scored. And really, arguing wOBA against OPS is splitting hairs. Both stats combine getting on base and total bases. One simply adds them together, the other puts more weight on one and then adds them together. Dismissing wOBA as contrived and obtuse, while championing OPS is stupid. Take a look at last year's OPS and wOBA team rankings. There's barely any difference. 28 out of 30 teams are within 2 spots in the rankings for each stat and 24 out of 30 are within 1 spot.

It is a VERY faulty formula.
All you have to do is look at some of the players ahead of Mays, Aaron and other greats who were nowhere near their level.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

It is a VERY faulty formula.
All you have to do is look at some of the players ahead of Mays, Aaron and other greats who were nowhere near their level.

Career WAR comes very close to nailing the true value of the all time greats.

 

[soxfan1468927]

It is a VERY faulty formula.
All you have to do is look at some of the players ahead of Mays, Aaron and other greats who were nowhere near their level.

But you can say the same for OPS because neither stat adjusts for the era in which they played. If you look at OPS+ and compare that to the equivalent for wOBA (wRC+) than you see that Mays and Aaron rank 20th and 23rd in OPS+ and 19th and 23rd in wRC+.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It is a VERY faulty formula.
All you have to do is look at some of the players ahead of Mays, Aaron and other greats who were nowhere near their level.

Meanwhile you say that you prefer OPS, a metric where Hank Aaron ranks right between Carlos Delgado and Earl Averill and Willie Mays ranks behind Lance Berkman.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Career WAR comes very close to nailing the true value of the all time greats.

Right when it comes to overall value, including longevity. That's why Aaron and Mays are among the greatest to ever play. Mays wasn't just a top 20 hitter of all time, he was also an excellent baserunner and defensive center fielder. That's why I think he's the 3rd or 4th greatest player of all time.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Right when it comes to overall value, including longevity. That's why Aaron and Mays are among the greatest to ever play. Mays wasn't just a top 20 hitter of all time, he was also an excellent baserunner and defensive center fielder. That's why I think he's the 3rd or 4th greatest player of all time.

I've made my point comparing Aaron to Mays, I feel Aaron should be slightly higher, but their careers not only ran parallel, they are both top 5 all time.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I've made my point comparing Aaron to Mays, I feel Aaron should be slightly higher, but their careers not only ran parallel, they are both top 5 all time.

I have Mays 3rd and Aaron 6th as far as position players.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Meanwhile you say that you prefer OPS, a metric where Hank Aaron ranks right between Carlos Delgado and Earl Averill and Willie Mays ranks behind Lance Berkman.

I've explained why both Aaron and Mays are lower in OPS, they both played the entire second dead ball period of the 60s and early 70s. They are #1 and #2 in OPS of all the players whose career ran throughout the 1060s. It kept other great like Yaz lower than they deserve.
This thread started by comparing contemporaries, OPS is great for that, but less so when comparing players from disparate eras. WAR gets around that by comparing apples to apples **Wins Above replacement** means value above the contemporary average player.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I have Mays 3rd and Aaron 6th as far as position players.

I have Aaron 3rd with Ruth and Cobb being 1 and 2. I have Mays 4th.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I have Aaron 3rd with Ruth and Cobb being 1 and 2. I have Mays 4th.

1. Ruth
2. Bonds
3. Mays
4. Williams
5. Cobb
6. Aaron
7. Hornsby
8. Wagner
9. Speaker
10. Musial

That's my top 10.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

1. Ruth
2. Bonds
3. Mays
4. Williams
5. Cobb
6. Aaron
7. Hornsby
8. Wagner
9. Speaker
10. Musial

That's my top 10.

I don't count Bonds and Williams had neither the body of work or defense to rate so high. Damn you're dissing Cobb. He was voted the greatest player of the first half of The 20th century in 51. When you combine his hits, doubles, triples, BA, OBP and over 800 stolen bases he rivaled Ruth. The object is facilitating run scoring, Cobb damn sure felled the bill.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I've explained why both Aaron and Mays are lower in OPS, they both played the entire second dead ball period of the 60s and early 70s. They are #1 and #2 in OPS of all the players whose career ran throughout the 1060s. It kept other great like Yaz lower than they deserve.
This thread started by comparing contemporaries, OPS is great for that, but less so when comparing players from disparate eras. WAR gets around that by comparing apples to apples **Wins Above replacement** means value above the contemporary average player.

1. You realize that your reasoning for Mays/Aaron being so low on the OPS leaderboard (which is correct) is the same reason that they are low on the wOBA leaderboard as well right?

2. That isn't what WAR means. "Contemporary average player" is not the same as "Contemporary replacement player". It's actually a huge difference. WAR estimates that a team consisting of all replacement players would win 48 games, while a team consisting of all average players would win 81.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I don't count Bonds and Williams had neither the body of work or defense to rate so high. Damn you're dissing Cobb. He was voted the greatest player of the first half of The 20th century in 51. When you combine his hits, doubles, triples, BA, OBP and over 800 stolen bases he rivaled Ruth. The object is facilitating run scoring, Cobb damn sure felled the bill.

That's embarrassing, I meant filled of course, not ''felled''.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

1. You realize that your reasoning for Mays/Aaron being so low on the OPS leaderboard (which is correct) is the same reason that they are low on the wOBA leaderboard as well right?

2. That isn't what WAR means. "Contemporary average player" is not the same as "Contemporary replacement player". It's actually a huge difference. WAR estimates that a team consisting of all replacement players would win 48 games, while a team consisting of all average players would win 81.

Yes, thanks for making my point about the failure of both WOBA and OPS when judging players from disparate eras. I know when I look at career ratings and not subjective opinions, WAR comes far closer to what we humans see as the top guys.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I don't count Bonds and Williams had neither the body of work or defense to rate so high. Damn you're dissing Cobb. He was voted the greatest player of the first half of The 20th century in 51. When you combine his hits, doubles, triples, BA, OBP and over 800 stolen bases he rivaled Ruth. The object is facilitating run scoring, Cobb damn sure felled the bill.

1. I know you don't count Bonds.
2. Williams body of work and lack of defense is the reason he isn't 2nd behind Ruth. I know we can't just count the years lost to war, but I think it perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that he doesn't have the body of work because of something outside his control instead of just retiring early. And his offense was that good that it more than outweighed his defense. He played 1000 fewer games than Aaron and his fWAR is just 5.9 points lower. He's the 2nd greatest hitter of all time and it's not even particularly close.
3. It's not really a diss on Cobb to have him as the 5th greatest position player of all time. And in 1951, Bonds and Mays weren't playing yet, Williams was only halfway through his career, and you agree that Ruth was better. So at the time, you would agree with me in voting Ruth number 1 and Cobb number 2.
4. Yeah all these guys did their job facilitating run scoring. That's why they are among the greatest of all time. You have to agree that Williams was a better hitter (OPS+ of 190 to 168) so you have to think that Cobb's baserunning, longevity, and defense outweigh Williams bat. Longevity is really the only part that you can have any confidence in though because it's very difficult to measure defense and baserunning from the early 20th century. You can cite stolen bases, but we don't know how many times he was caught stealing. And while Cobb's positional value in center and the fact that I'm sure hew as at least somewhat better than Williams defensively, it's still a tough thing to measure.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Yes, thanks for making my point about the failure of both WOBA and OPS when judging players from disparate eras. I know when I look at career ratings and not subjective opinions, WAR comes far closer to what we humans see as the top guys.

I don't think anyone was disagreeing with you on that. Both those stats have their faults even in comparing players of current eras. Having a high OPS playing for the Rockies isn't the same as having a high OPS playing for the Padres.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I don't think anyone was disagreeing with you on that. Both those stats have their faults even in comparing players of current eras. Having a high OPS playing for the Rockies isn't the same as having a high OPS playing for the Padres.

True, but OPS for the most part captures the value of current players. I barely even take note of Rockies players' stats.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree as to the original question of ''best hitter'' applied to all time, Williams would be higher, but not ahead of Cobb or Aaron on my list. I'd like to see Williams against today's pitching, he had that long swing, could he get to today's pitchers without changing to a tighter swing ? Aaron had a modern swing, no problem there.

Not ahead of Cobb or Aaron for best hitter?