OTA's No TB12, No Gronk

[redseat]

I really think the KO and concussion scared him.

and family really puts it into perspective for him

 

[CreepCreep2014]

This is just Don's way of fucking over BB......he knows TB is done and just want to get one last jab at BB, ya know....cause everyone else is....

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

Do what? I didn't think he was done THIS year from the start.... This I am thinking will be his last

That he will play beyond this contract and into his mid-40's. That's the comment you said you agreed with. And then said you disagreeed with.

 

[BigKen]

Don Yee, Brady's agent said yesterday that Brady intends to play until he's 45 if he can maintain his health and play at Championship level. Brady is looking for an extension of his contract. Gronk wants incentives or a raise. If BB can give Chung a couple of million, why can't he do the same for Gronk? Gronk has a greater effect on the outcome of a game.

It's little things like this, that insult players. This is the type of thing that is much more previlant in todays sports than it has been in the previous 50 years. 'I' believe that BB is losing touch with the Modern football player.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

Don Yee, Brady's agent said yesterday that Brady intends to play until he's 45 if he can maintain his health and play at Championship level. Brady is looking for an extension of his contract. Gronk wants incentives or a raise. If BB can give Chung a couple of million, why can't he do the same for Gronk? Gronk has a greater effect on the outcome of a game.

It's little things like this, that insult players. This is the type of thing that is much more previlant in todays sports than it has been in the previous 50 years. 'I' believe that BB is losing touch with the Modern football player.

Oh, you mean like when he re-structured Gronk's contract less than a year ago to make it easier for him to hit his incentives and make more money?

You have no idea what if any demands for new money Gronk has made or what Belichick has or has not considered? You know BB won't publicly discuss these matters. Why can't you just as easily suppose that Gronk's agent called BB after the season and said Gronk wants top tier QB money or he's going to retire, as you can suppose that BB is just willfully ignoring Gronk's efforts to get more money? Which is the 1000% wrong play with BB, btw. Just ask Ty Law.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

nm

 

[Yankee Traveler]

Don Yee, Brady's agent said yesterday that Brady intends to play until he's 45 if he can maintain his health and play at Championship level. Brady is looking for an extension of his contract. Gronk wants incentives or a raise. If BB can give Chung a couple of million, why can't he do the same for Gronk? Gronk has a greater effect on the outcome of a game.

It's little things like this, that insult players. This is the type of thing that is much more previlant in todays sports than it has been in the previous 50 years. 'I' believe that BB is losing touch with the Modern football player.

Chung - 2018 Base Salary $2.4 Million
Gronk - 2018 Base Salary $8.0 Million

Chung - 2019 Base Salary $2.4 Million
Gronk - 2019 Base Salary $9.0 Million

Of course there are incentives and signing bonuses, but that is a substantial difference.

Chung may not have the impact on defense that Gronk has on offense, but on the same token Gronk does not play 3 times harder than Chung.

If this is Gronk's game, this will not end well for Gronk.

See Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Randy Moss, Logan Mankins...etc.

 

[BigKen]

Chung - 2018 Base Salary $2.4 Million
Gronk - 2018 Base Salary $8.0 Million

Chung - 2019 Base Salary $2.4 Million
Gronk - 2019 Base Salary $9.0 Million

Of course there are incentives and signing bonuses, but that is a substantial difference.

Chung may not have the impact on defense that Gronk has on offense, but on the same token Gronk does not play 3 times harder than Chung.

If this is Gronk's game, this will not end well for Gronk.

See Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Randy Moss, Logan Mankins...etc.

Belichick did not willingly give Gronk added incentives in 2017. He did it because Gronk hadn't played 16 games in the previous two seasons and he didn't think that Guerreo could keep him on the field for the entire stretch of 2017. Gronk made All-Pro which kicked in all of the incentives and bonuses. Nothing pisses off Bill Belichick more than being shown as being outright wrong. Bill was twice proven wrong. First, Guerreo's training anf fitness program worked for Gronk. Second, Gronk surpassed all of the metrics for the incentives.

You can love Belichick and think he's the second coming, but he's starting to create an atmosphere that today's football playters don't want to be part of. People today do not want to be belittled or embarassed in front of others. That was always a means of motivation for Belichick, but not today. Doing that today immediately turns a larger and larger number of athletes against the coach who does that. Put yourself in a pleyer's shoes and think how you'd feel if your boss did it to you in front everyone you work with. No way in hell do you say, he right, I deserve that, I'll work harder tomorrow.
Then again, your boss walks up to you, praises you in front of everyone, calls you into his office and says, "You did such a great job last year, I'm going to give you a 25% salary increase. Keep up the good work." I was manager for more than 20 years and I never shamed anyone in front of the groups.

My personal opinion is that Belichick is not making the needed adjustments that are required for dealing with the modern day athlete or football player. Most coaches experience the exact same thing at some time in their career. There comes a point where you have to ask yourself what you can do to better communicate or deal with something different. If you don't self examine, the game will pass you by because everything changes. And so do you.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

So when he gives Chung a raise he didn't have to, it's a bad thing, and when he gives Gronk a chance to earn extra money he didn't have to, it's also a bad thing. Got it.

 

[Cyder]

Gronk bought into a horse named Gronk that was going to the derby. The horse is going to miss the Derby with an injury. Looks like the owners got the name right.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

PS because of those incentives that were added to the contract (which again the Pats were under no obligation to do), Gronk took home more cash in pocket than any other TE in the league last year.

If he wants to act like a 270 pound diaper baby because a couple of guys have higher AAV's on contracts they signed after him and/or because BB hurt his widdew feewings at a film session, that's on him, not BB.

I guess when BB gets pushed out the door as you so desperately desire and they suck for a decade playing for a coach the players all think is a swell fella who's in touch with their young guy way of doing things, you can say I told you so.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

I've been publicly shamed by a boss before. It sucks. You're absolutely right it didn't make me work any harder. It also didn't make me stop working altogether and start acting like a giant assclown trying to get my way. Because I'm a fucking professional.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

Belichick did not willingly give Gronk added incentives in 2017. He did it because Gronk hadn't played 16 games in the previous two seasons and he didn't think that Guerreo could keep him on the field for the entire stretch of 2017. Gronk made All-Pro which kicked in all of the incentives and bonuses. Nothing pisses off Bill Belichick more than being shown as being outright wrong. Bill was twice proven wrong. First, Guerreo's training anf fitness program worked for Gronk. Second, Gronk surpassed all of the metrics for the incentives.

You can love Belichick and think he's the second coming, but he's starting to create an atmosphere that today's football playters don't want to be part of. People today do not want to be belittled or embarassed in front of others. That was always a means of motivation for Belichick, but not today. Doing that today immediately turns a larger and larger number of athletes against the coach who does that. Put yourself in a pleyer's shoes and think how you'd feel if your boss did it to you in front everyone you work with. No way in hell do you say, he right, I deserve that, I'll work harder tomorrow.
Then again, your boss walks up to you, praises you in front of everyone, calls you into his office and says, "You did such a great job last year, I'm going to give you a 25% salary increase. Keep up the good work." I was manager for more than 20 years and I never shamed anyone in front of the groups.

My personal opinion is that Belichick is not making the needed adjustments that are required for dealing with the modern day athlete or football player. Most coaches experience the exact same thing at some time in their career. There comes a point where you have to ask yourself what you can do to better communicate or deal with something different. If you don't self examine, the game will pass you by because everything changes. And so do you.

No, don't get me wrong.
1) If Alex G's system works, BB, the Krafts, the NE Pats need to be the first to adopt or at least begin to integrate it into their program. I have said that before. I will say it again. I am not saying it does work, I have no experience with it. But I do remember a few years ago...several years ago, Bill either fired or made motions to fire the strength & conditioning coach due to the number of injuries. And he proclaimed that was an area he had no expertise. If injuries happen to people who are doing this and not to people who are doing that...try some more of that.
2) Gronk received zero targets during the final game. That would have kept him from meeting the requirements for his incentives. Except for the pro bowl (or All Pro?) which Bill had no control over. I believe this was intentional on Bill's part due at least in part to Gronk's dirty hit on the Bills player and subsequent suspension (Steelers Game?). Wrong of Bill to let him play without the chance to earn his incentives, in my opinion.
3) Yes, whenever I discuss a team members shortcomings, I always say where WE failed, and what WE did wrong and what lessons WE learned. I never single anyone out. I speak to them in private.

 

[nefansince75]

Belichick did not willingly give Gronk added incentives in 2017. He did it because Gronk hadn't played 16 games in the previous two seasons and he didn't think that Guerreo could keep him on the field for the entire stretch of 2017. Gronk made All-Pro which kicked in all of the incentives and bonuses. Nothing pisses off Bill Belichick more than being shown as being outright wrong. Bill was twice proven wrong. First, Guerreo's training anf fitness program worked for Gronk. Second, Gronk surpassed all of the metrics for the incentives.

You can love Belichick and think he's the second coming, but he's starting to create an atmosphere that today's football playters don't want to be part of. People today do not want to be belittled or embarassed in front of others. That was always a means of motivation for Belichick, but not today. Doing that today immediately turns a larger and larger number of athletes against the coach who does that. Put yourself in a pleyer's shoes and think how you'd feel if your boss did it to you in front everyone you work with. No way in hell do you say, he right, I deserve that, I'll work harder tomorrow.
Then again, your boss walks up to you, praises you in front of everyone, calls you into his office and says, "You did such a great job last year, I'm going to give you a 25% salary increase. Keep up the good work." I was manager for more than 20 years and I never shamed anyone in front of the groups.

My personal opinion is that Belichick is not making the needed adjustments that are required for dealing with the modern day athlete or football player. Most coaches experience the exact same thing at some time in their career. There comes a point where you have to ask yourself what you can do to better communicate or deal with something different. If you don't self examine, the game will pass you by because everything changes. And so do you.

I think you are over complicating it.

1) Bill can be an asshole and expects things his way (or the highway)
2) Nobody works harder to ensure his players succeed

Everyone knows both. Bill is loyal and not out to screw anyone which is why he has a legion of college coaches who give him great input and has a loyal reciprocation on trades and other types of cooperation across the league.

But he's an asshole too. And everyone knows it.

 

[BigKen]

I think you are over complicating it.

1) Bill can be an asshole and expects things his way (or the highway)
2) Nobody works harder to ensure his players succeed

Everyone knows both. Bill is loyal and not out to screw anyone which is why he has a legion of college coaches who give him great input and has a loyal reciprocation on trades and other types of cooperation across the league.

But he's an asshole too. And everyone knows it.

maybe I do over-complicate it, but I think it's a pretty simple theory.

I coached for over forty years. Baseball, Football and Basketball. Youth, never college or pro.
As time progressed, I could see changes in kids that I had not seen prior. I was also an official for all three sports up through high school. The sport that changed the fastest and most severe was basketball, followed by football and then baseball. Parents made discipline near impossible in basketball because every parent played it at least once. Most never played it again but were experts by the time junior started playing. With football becoming a 24/7 TV program, every father became a coach from the stands. My point here is that parents made the sport change at an earlier age than ever. Have you ever gone to a town or city Rec. League game on a Saturday morning? Pro athletes today are a product of these types of parents and have rarely if ever been ridiculed or called out if front of team mates. Many of them made coaches lives miserable.

As far as loyalty goes, I don't find Bill loyal at all. He has his rules and if you don't agree with them, you're gone. There's no loyalty involved, as you stated, it's Bill's way or the Highway. BUT, and this is a big but. There comes a time when a coach has to re-evaluate his rules. What worked in 1999-2010 is no longer working the same way anymore. It may be time to make a few slight adjustments. Experiment a bit and find a new way to implement the same rules. That 1998 VW has 300,000 miles on it and is really starting falter, do you put $8000 worth of new parts in it? Or do you find another VW and hope it will last another 20 years and 300,000 miles?

The world is constantly changing. If you can't change with it, you get left behind.

The perfect example are people like me. people in their early seventies or late sixties. We were the ones who brought the world from electric to electronic in 1980's. Before us, there were no computers, word processors or or mobile phones. I had one of the first personal computers and can remember typing in a 17 digit URL and waiting three minutes to get to a website. I owned one of the first cellular phones. I carried it in a sack that weighed 30 lbs. It was cool to take it to the beach and call my in-laws and tell them where we were. Fast forward to 2018. I can text and make telephone calls with my IPhone 8. My grandson can do a thousand more things with his. Technology has blown by me. Bill is at the crossroads at 66 years old (Two years younger than me). How long can he last in the supersonic world of modern football?

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

So we can STFU about that, at least

 

[redseat]

That he will play beyond this contract and into his mid-40's. That's the comment you said you agreed with. And then said you disagreeed with.

sorry, thought you were saying something out. my mad. i was thinking i was agreeing to thinking Brady wouldn't play this year being wrong

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Here's my two cents worth for all of you who don't care

First sometimes a good public embarrassment is needed. Sometimes it's the last straw and the only one that works.BB doesn't publicly lambaste anyone. If anything he praises them. Usually filled with a lot of bs none the less praise. If he calls a player out during a meeting boo hoo. They're professionals making millions deal with it.

Yes BB may be reaching the end if he's unable to adapt. He's not there yet as he's continuously proving he can win. Almost every player that leaves has nothing but good to say about him. He's a straight shooter. The player knows what's expected. There is no hidden agendas and BB doesn't pull the rug out from under you with you already being aware.

I certainly believe in Eastern medicine. That's probably why I'm there right now. Everything from acupuncture, massage, holistic herbs...can it cure cancer? But if it saves one person or makes one person a believer then why not give it a shot? Heck the best oncologists in the world with their best drugs and lasers can't cure it. I really hope TB and RG can talk Kraft into using Alex G more. It's not hurting from anything we can see? Yeah a few guys might be a little lighter in the ass and not squatting as much but are they able to stay on the field? If so how about scheming around their strengths Bill the genius.

Gronk not sure what's going on with you. I don't think it's the $ like many are saying. I think it's more BBs way of doing things and not allowing you to see Alex inside the stadium. If that's the case I hope you both find a way to work it out. I want to see a couple more good years out of you and TB.

 

[nefansince75]

Here's my two cents worth for all of you who don't care

First sometimes a good public embarrassment is needed. Sometimes it's the last straw and the only one that works.BB doesn't publicly lambaste anyone. If anything he praises them. Usually filled with a lot of bs none the less praise. If he calls a player out during a meeting boo hoo. They're professionals making millions deal with it.

Yes BB may be reaching the end if he's unable to adapt. He's not there yet as he's continuously proving he can win. Almost every player that leaves has nothing but good to say about him. He's a straight shooter. The player knows what's expected. There is no hidden agendas and BB doesn't pull the rug out from under you with you already being aware.

I certainly believe in Eastern medicine. That's probably why I'm there right now. Everything from acupuncture, massage, holistic herbs...can it cure cancer? But if it saves one person or makes one person a believer then why not give it a shot? Heck the best oncologists in the world with their best drugs and lasers can't cure it. I really hope TB and RG can talk Kraft into using Alex G more. It's not hurting from anything we can see? Yeah a few guys might be a little lighter in the ass and not squatting as much but are they able to stay on the field? If so how about scheming around their strengths Bill the genius.

Gronk not sure what's going on with you. I don't think it's the $ like many are saying. I think it's more BBs way of doing things and not allowing you to see Alex inside the stadium. If that's the case I hope you both find a way to work it out. I want to see a couple more good years out of you and TB.

The body is an amazing thing. It's designed to fix itself and does it well when given the proper resources. It's also quirky and can benefit when those quirks are studied and understood.

Enter a guy like AG who understands both the resources required and the quirks, but I use the phrase "like" on purpose. He's been accused of manipulating people with his knowledge to make bank. We know the world is full of snake oil salesmen so the question is: Is AG selling the not so magical insight into the magical body or just better packaged snake oil...

It seems to me he's he real deal, but I completely understand the skepticism given the world has far more snake oil specialists than people of any other profession.

 

[BigKen]

The body is an amazing thing. It's designed to fix itself and does it well when given the proper resources. It's also quirky and can benefit when those quirks are studied and understood.

Enter a guy like AG who understands both the resources required and the quirks, but I use the phrase "like" on purpose. He's been accused of manipulating people with his knowledge to make bank. We know the world is full of snake oil salesmen so the question is: Is AG selling the not so magical insight into the magical body or just better packaged snake oil...

It seems to me he's he real deal, but I completely understand the skepticism given the world has far more snake oil specialists than people of any other profession.

I'm not 100% sold on everything Guerreo does. BUT, he believes that micro-tearing muscle to build bulk and strength leads to them being easier to damage. Enlongating them and making them more flexible allows them to be struck and respond much quicker. I'm working with elasyics with my grandson and they seem to work really well allowing him to react and move much quicker. He felt foolish the first few times doing exercises with a band wrapped around his legs, but now that the weather is warming up, he's doing his dance routine in the back yard.

As far as squats go, I always used them as punishment. Telling a player to do 10 push ups is a waste. Tell them to do 10 deep squats tends to get the message across, even to the most difficult ones.

Guerreo is a problem for Belichick. he doesn't understand fully what he's try to acheive and he thinks it's against everything that football has done up until now. What makes it worse is when a player who has sought help from Ag tells the Pats trainers that they don't want to do an exercise or weight work because AG has said it will prevent healing or not benefit their problem.

I agree with @NWPATSFAN and @nefansince75 that BB has to incorporate AG into working with the training and strength staff and possibly start to change the way that players get into shape and more important stay in shape. It would be nice to go through one season without have 14 guys on IR.