OT: Racist Math questions for 3rd graders in Georgia

[NinerSickness]

$67,000 per year doesn't seem like a lot of money to me. There are teamsters at my job that make a lot more than that driving a truck or a forklift and they contribute $20 a month for their Cadillac health plan and have a pension that is easily as good as what teachers get.

It wouldn't be as obscene if they got a 401K like the rest of us. But the pensions put their salaries in the category of WTF? Also those truck drivers probably work at least 6 weeks a year if not more. Teamsters are a private sector union. That means they negotiate with companies not with politicians. That means they usually don't get pensions because companies aren't stupid and irresponsible enough to put themselves on the hook for decades in the future (and the ones who do sometimes just file chapter 11 and their retirees get nothing like a few airlines have done).

You should be able to make a lot more than that programming.

I could, but the work was boring to me. I also have some things / ideas I'd like to pursue in the summers when normal people are working.

If you are so morally opposed to the public school teachers don't you think you are being a hypocrite for wanting to become part of that system? Don't you think that as a jaded person you may be a terrible teacher?

Hypocrite? No. I don't take responsibility for something I'd fight tooth & nail to end. It's bigger than just me. I'd be the kind of teacher who tries to communicate with parents as much as possible because they are always a kid's primary teacher whether they're great parents or completely suck at life.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

you prove the adage that you can pay for school, but you can't buy class. i really hope you are facetious. you state your contempt for the public school teacher and yet you are about to enter the profession for the 'easy money?' that simply implies you'll be dispassionate, care nothing about the kids you'll be shaping for the rest of their life, and will collect your paycheck and flip a giant bird to the rest of us.

i'll try to address this point by point and its sure to get rather long so feel free to skip it because it may sting a bit.

most teachers i knew [grades 1-2 in the ukraine, 6-8 at a shitty cali public school - roosevelt middle, in SF - and 9-12 at a great public school: lowell] had to teach summer school or work on continuing education credits so your '3 months off in the summer' argument is tenuous, at best. while i agree that kids should be in school all year round, that is the only place where our thinking converges.

a great number of my teachers cared enough to function as psychologists, sociologists, counselors, and life coaches to a whole number of troubled kids. they cared enough to grade papers til the evening and still show up every day at 7:30. many bought school supplies [like chalk, erasers, et al] on their dime. dozens spent weekends [and some decent $$] at kinkos printing out excerpts from books the school couldn't afford. i could go on, but i have more material to cover.

this isn't to say i haven't had awful teachers. but they were just as common at my overpriced private college [think $50k] as they were at R.M.S.. it certainly seems like you'd fall into that category. your contempt for the profession certainly inspires no confidence in your passion or work ethic. your spelling also does you no favors. hence, [and that's with a C] if you were my little brother's teacher, i'd probably assault you at a PTA meeting, ensure your jaw was wired shut and someone with a bit more respect for the job would take your place until the year ended.

your home schooling example [same with the voucher system] is highly flawed because the public school has to educate 400 million americans and only a tiny percentage of that is home schooled. those that fall in the latter category are often from wealthy households, with two parents, one of whom can afford to not work and spend time with their children. often, whatever statistical advantage they gain in testing and 'grades' is negated by stunted social skills and a lack of emotional development.

you quickly hedged your $22k per child to 'minimal assistance' to poor households that can't afford to home school so i hope your entire argument is nothing more than devil's advocacy at its worst. either you intend to come off as a giant ass or you fail to understand the implication in your own writing. if you really think the solution to our failing education system is to give parents a bunch of cash and replace public schools with private ones, you're more obtuse than the warden in shawshank. more likely than not, however, you're being disingenuous. many of the problems our schools face stems from lazy, uneducated, disinterested parents. the way we style the workplace also plays a huge role as those parents that want to play an integral role in their kids' education are often too overworked to do so. 10 vacation days a year, for instance, is absurd. if most parents don't come to PTA meetings, you really think they'll home school with great success? how about the children of immigrants? they're supposed to be taught the proper use of the semi-colon by someone that can't speak the language? my father is a brilliant man but if i had to rely on him to teach me to write in english i'd make you look like hemingway by comparison.

how many public school teachers you know pull up to their workplace in a benz? i know 0. i do know, however, a ton of MBA, PhDs, & M.S. graduates that drive beemers while working a few more days per year [but far fewer hours], but with far less stress, and with virtually none of the social benefit. if you do manage to make it into the SFUSD i wonder how overpaid you'll feel the first time you'll have to grade 140 3-page essays [you may, of course, just make a note or two, fuck actually teaching, right? and call it a day]. perhaps a better example would be when some poor 12 year old is crying in your classroom after school because his step-father knocked his mom's teeth out and he has no other adult to speak to. or when some mentally unstable 10th grader threatens you with a razor blade. or a victim of pedophilia. or when a student in your class commits suicide because he was bullied in ways you may have prevented if you noticed/cared/bothered. all those things happen. DAILY!.

honestly, sick. i read this board far more often than i post. many times, i found myself enjoying your side of a debate. this entire thread, however, made me lose a ton of respect for you as a poster, a man, and a human being. i strongly encourage you to drop your pursuit and focus on some other career. it is apparent you have neither the passion nor the character to teach this country's children.

the unions are a huge problem. mostly because they protect those that espouse the same garbage you've sullied this thread with. the 'system' you propose, however, would change nothing other than the way money is allocated. to most small-government types, that is the only thing that matters. for the most part, those people have never seen a country with a truly small government. those systems are only seen in the 3rd world. every developed nation has a huge gov/bureaucracy and while it has more flaws than i would like, it beats the hell out of bangladesh, belarus, or the ivory coast.

You described Sickness perfectly. Well said

 

[NinerSickness]

vvoland I adress the point earlier, but I'll reiderate: I wouldn't be work for free. Just because I think public school teachers are over paid doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs (although a lot of them have been in my experience). It also doens't mean I'd be apathetic towards kids. I've worked with kids quite a bit in my life. But if I wanted to do things to help children it wouldn't be going into public school teaching.

I don't believe the profession helps kids at all. I believe the profession hurts children, and it's not the fault of teachers. Everything is dumbed down and everyone gets a trophy. It's the fault of politicians.

 

[NinerSickness]

Very feww people are brilliant so I doubt that your friends are brilliant. Even we publicly schooled cretins can read.

You sure are the king of assumptions. Go away. You add nothing to this discussion (meaning you're being a troll).

Sounds like what your pastor and his sheep have done to you. I'm very familiar with the rhetoric.

Another stupid assumption. I have no "pastor." I don't attend any community church. Thank you for exemplifying to everyone how you and people like you are nothing but Christian hatemongers. Not religious hatemongers; CHRISTIAN hatemongers. You leave non-Christian people who believe in God alone.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

You sure are the king of assumptions. Go away. You add nothing to this discussion (meaning you're being a troll).



Another stupid assumption. I have no "pastor." I don't attend any community church. Thank you for exemplifying to everyone how you and people like you are nothing but Christian hatemongers. Not religious hatemongers; CHRISTIAN hatemongers. You leave non-Christian people who believe in God alone.

Yes, it is the Christians, with their absurd mythology and dogma that they somehow convince themselves is true, who disgust me. They live in an educated society and they should know better than to believe such nonsense.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Bull crap. They're intimidated into thinking what people who have no concern for their well being force down their throats by rule of law.

Sick, you might go into teaching for the money and you may not have any concern for the well-being of your students. That doesn't mean that's the case for all teachers. The VAST majority of teachers I have known do it precisely because of their concern for the kids. That's what drew me to the profession.

 

[NinerSickness]

Sick, you might go into teaching for the money and you may not have any concern for the well-being of your students. That doesn't mean that's the case for all teachers. The VAST majority of teachers I have known do it precisely because of their concern for the kids. That's what drew me to the profession.

Why would you assume I have no concern for the well being of students? I fully intend to give everything I have to get the most out of the dumbed down, busy work oriented content the shackles of the state will afford me.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

vvoland I adress the point earlier, but I'll reiderate: I wouldn't be work for free. Just because I think public school teachers are over paid doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs (although a lot of them have been in my experience). It also doens't mean I'd be apathetic towards kids. I've worked with kids quite a bit in my life. But if I wanted to do things to help children it wouldn't be going into public school teaching.

I don't believe the profession helps kids at all. I believe the profession hurts children, and it's not the fault of teachers. Everything is dumbed down and everyone gets a trophy. It's the fault of politicians.

That's curious, as studies have frequently demonstrated that the quality of the teacher is the greatest single factor in student performance, and one great teacher can absolutely turn around a kid's life.

Out of curiosity, what profession would you go into if you gave a damn about the kids?

 

[sayheykid1]

It wouldn't be as obscene if they got a 401K like the rest of us. But the pensions put their salaries in the category of WTF? Also those truck drivers probably work at least 6 weeks a year if not more. Teamsters are a private sector union. That means they negotiate with companies not with politicians. That means they usually don't get pensions because companies aren't stupid and irresponsible enough to put themselves on the hook for decades in the future (and the ones who do sometimes just file chapter 11 and their retirees get nothing like a few airlines have done).



I could, but the work was boring to me. I also have some things / ideas I'd like to pursue in the summers when normal people are working.



Hypocrite? No. I don't take responsibility for something I'd fight tooth & nail to end. It's bigger than just me. I'd be the kind of teacher who tries to communicate with parents as much as possible because they are always a kid's primary teacher whether they're great parents or completely suck at life.

Our guys from Local work four or five days per week, get three weeks vacation per year in addition to another 10 hours per month of PTO. They all have a fully funded pension to which the company contributes $4.87 per hour worked. The workers also have the option to contribute to the same 401 K plan that I am with the same matching system. The company I work for is over 100 years old and even if they did go under it would have no affect on the pension because the Teamsters control the pension fund.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Why would you assume I have no concern for the well being of students? I fully intend to give everything I have to get the most out of the dumbed down, busy work oriented content the shackles of the state will afford me.

You just said teachers are "people who have no concern for [their students'] well-being." You aspire to be a teacher. It stands to reason you wouldn't have concern for your students' well-being. You have stated plainly that you don't believe that teachers work outside of school or during the summers, so there's no reason to believe that you will. I haven't seen anything in this thread that indicates that you would give two shits about your students, and all signs point to you being exactly the type of awful teacher you so despise if you enter the profession. Congrats on hoping to join the ranks of those you hate. Kind of pathetic, really.

 

[NinerSickness]

That's curious, as studies have frequently demonstrated that the quality of the teacher is the greatest single factor in student performance, and one great teacher can absolutely turn around a kid's life.

You believe the quality of a teacher is a bigger factor than the quality of a parent?

Out of curiosity, what profession would you go into if you gave a damn about the kids?

I do give a damn about the kids. There's a difference between giving a damn about kids and committing an enormous potion of one's life to helping kids in a self-sacrificing way. If I wanted to do something for kids I'd probably adopt one from a country that actually knows the meaning of the word poverty like China. But I'm not married, and I wouldn't want to adopt children unless I were. And even if I were married I wouldn't do it unless I were certain we'd be able to handle it.

 

[Southern9er]

You didn't really address MHSL's main point: how do you verify that parents are in fact home-schooling their kids instead of just collecting a check and letting their kids do what they will? That seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

I'm open to a voucher system, but paying parents to home school is far too easily abused. At best I might consider some sort of tax break for parents who home school.

It's no easier abused than ANY OTHER social program in this country. And if a verification program is required...test 'em...but that point is absolutely ridiculous consider that massive corruption that exists because of current assistance programs...wow...

The argument for fairness is often made...what about fairness to me and my wife who can do a far better job in less time? Why should I pay to educate my own kids and then someone else's who will only be educated enough to collect their own benefits.

 

[vvoland]

vvoland I adress the point earlier, but I'll reiderate: I wouldn't be work for free. Just because I think public school teachers are over paid doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs (although a lot of them have been in my experience). It also doens't mean I'd be apathetic towards kids. I've worked with kids quite a bit in my life. But if I wanted to do things to help children it wouldn't be going into public school teaching.

I don't believe the profession helps kids at all. I believe the profession hurts children, and it's not the fault of teachers. Everything is dumbed down and everyone gets a trophy. It's the fault of politicians.

that, literally, makes me shudder.

you're going into a profession that, in your opinion, doesn't help kids. in fact, its hurts children, but you're going into it, regardless. apparently, for the money [i still can't remember any of my teachers living in mcmansions or driving fine european luxury automobilies].

if you think teachers are overpaid its because you don't think the workload justifies the pay. to me, that means you'll be apathetic and will do the bare minimum your paycheck will require. my english teacher wrote more on my essay than i did and two years later, i knew how to write. she spent countless hours after class/school helping me with my college essay. the hours she worked, justified a 250k salary. she was paid 20% of that. when i say 'justified' i mean, i wouldn't be able to do that type of work for less. she worked 12+hr days, 5 days a week for 10 moths. the other 2 she spent teaching summer school. that was probably closer to an 8 hour workday [2 classes a day, not 5].

listen, a teacher is one of a handful of adults than can change a child's life. the others are mostly relatives. that makes a teacher the most objective adult in a kid's life. bad teachers will haunt their students for a long time. great ones leave an imprint for life. just look at the debate we're having my great teachers make me indignant about this entire thread. in fact, i've never been this serious on a message board. i'm not sure if i should threaten you or try to bribe be but please... PLEASE... either change the philosophy or change your career track.

one last point. you seem to disparage government, unions [public, not private], and speak in glowing terms of individuals and corporation. i can imagine where your political ideology points. let me just say two things. corporations fail far more often than governments [especially western, 'socialist' ones]. corporations make terrible mistakes, especially when allocating capital for future expenditures. the auto industry, the airline industry, and wall street [basically the only 3 large industrial complexes left in the u.s.] are all AWFUL at precisely that. going chapter 11 and refusing to honor contracts for workers already in retirement [or approaching it] should be a jailable offense, not a form of debt restructuring or compnany streamlining. if the u.s. did what GM, FORD, AA, et al have done, our seniors would be hungry, sicks, and mostly dead. please, i implore you, visit and take a good look at the countries with the 'smallest' governments. it ain't pretty. trust me.. you want no part of dhaka city, donetsk, or djibouti.

 

[vvoland]

Why would you assume I have no concern for the well being of students? I fully intend to give everything I have to get the most out of the dumbed down, busy work oriented content the shackles of the state will afford me.

my AP physics teacher refused to use new textbooks [tenure cuts both ways] because he thought they were a disservice to his students. he kept, and used, editions from the late 80s, early 90s, replacing lost/worn out books out of his own pocket. my english teacher cared less about me passing the state test than she did about my actual ability to write well. she often brought in 40-60 page print outs for her 5 daily classes because our school couldn't afford all the literature she wanted to expose us to. so yes, she paid, with her own money, for ~6000 pages [40x150] per week so that we wouldn't be measured by low standards but by her metrics. needless to say no one had any problems with the AP physics exams or the statewide english tests administered every spring.

i have serious doubt you'd be this type of teacher. i have a feeling you would do nothing more than the bare minimum until you got tenured and then you wouldn't even do that. that makes you one of the biggest scumbags i've ever debated on a message board. i cannot, as much as i would like to, let this go. i'm disgusted, appalled, and mortified all at once. our school system has enough problems without your particular brand of douchebaggery.

 

[vvoland]

You believe the quality of a teacher is a bigger factor than the quality of a parent?



I do give a damn about the kids. There's a difference between giving a damn about kids and committing an enormous potion of one's life to helping kids in a self-sacrificing way. If I wanted to do something for kids I'd probably adopt one from a country that actually knows the meaning of the word poverty like China. But I'm not married, and I wouldn't want to adopt children unless I were. And even if I were married I wouldn't do it unless I were certain we'd be able to handle it.

the difference you're referring to is that of a weekend boys&girls club volunteer and a public school teacher. and god have mercy and the poor chinese kid you may adopt some day. i think he'd be better off living on leaves and rainwater than 'raised' by someone with this much cognitive dissonance and blissful ignorance.

you, sir, are a piece of shit. if you want a cushy job, go join the postal service. or become a cop and assault some young black kids for great pay and benefits. DO NOT enter the one profession where children depend on you [even if they don't even know it] and where you'll shape the lives of 100-200 children [you know, otherwise known as '"people", PER YEAR.

 

[sayheykid1]

The fact that the guy wants to be part of a system he loathes be one of the people that he holds contempt for makes me think he will be a shitty teacher as well and the disgust for nurses and teachers is what really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[filosofy29]

my AP physics teacher refused to use new textbooks [tenure cuts both ways] because he thought they were a disservice to his students. he kept, and used, editions from the late 80s, early 90s, replacing lost/worn out books out of his own pocket. my english teacher cared less about me passing the state test than she did about my actual ability to write well. she often brought in 40-60 page print outs for her 5 daily classes because our school couldn't afford all the literature she wanted to expose us to. so yes, she paid, with her own money, for ~6000 pages [40x150] per week so that we wouldn't be measured by low standards but by her metrics. needless to say no one had any problems with the AP physics exams or the statewide english tests administered every spring.

i have serious doubt you'd be this type of teacher. i have a feeling you would do nothing more than the bare minimum until you got tenured and then you wouldn't even do that. that makes you one of the biggest scumbags i've ever debated on a message board. i cannot, as much as i would like to, let this go. i'm disgusted, appalled, and mortified all at once. our school system has enough problems without your particular brand of douchebaggery.

Don't know NinerSickness well, as I've only known of his posts since he came to this site (so take this post with a grain of salt).....nor do I think that posts on a message board paint the entire picture of what a man (or woman) make.....that said, he does just seem to talk louder when someone disagrees with him. He also likes to "reiderates" [sic] how idiotic others are when they bring up counter arguments.

For what it's worth, I thought your post (#177) hit the nail on the head (TREMENDOUS post). Not all my teachers were great (private or public), but the ones that cared far outweighed the ones who just collected a paycheck. In my humble opinion, parents need to get better, not teachers. The lack of personal accountability (something that should be instilled by parents/guardians) is sorely lacking in our society.

End

 

[Southern9er]

Wow people like this piss me off she shouldn't have a job. I am a strict supporter that teachers should be at the same level as doctors. We need the best and brightest teaching our kids. But unions make it impossible to get rid of bad teachers.

Really?

Did you think about the implication of that? Does it happen by choice or government force? If you want the same level of professionalism and expertise, you have to pay for it. Which profession and education is easier to attain?

If it does happen, do you lower the wages of doctors or increase the wages of teachers? Who decides that and what right/authority do they have to do that?

If that is done, what do you think will happen to the number of doctors in this country? And who's going to pay for the costs of their nearly 8 years of medical schooling? Teachers with their new found wealth created from less than half the time to prepare for the profession and requiring far less ability and tenacity to complete said education? Me? if I'm choosing, I will go with teaching if I can make the same money. Work less than 12hrs a day and get the summers off!

Me? I'm a firm supporter that soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines should be paid what pro-football players make...but why is that not a good idea?

 

[clyde_carbon]

Any more personal attacks on posters from anyone and I'm sending this thread to the abyss. This shit is getting way too out of control.

 

[EKmane]

]That's pretty mean & presumptuous.[/B]



You're grouping an entire segment of the population based on your wife's sisters? I didn't have the advantage of home schooling, but I have many close friends who were home schooled and they're not only brilliant but they're very social. Your anecdote doens't begin to show cause & effect.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry if it came off like that, Bro. I wasn't trying to be mean, I respect you and what you have to say. I should have put it a different way, I just have a strong stance against homeschool.

Also, it's not just based on the twins, it's based on them for my personal experience, plus what the studies say. Dr. Phil is one of the respected experts that is 100% against kids being homeschooled at the high school level.