OT: Politics Thread - Do Not Open Unless You Want to Argue

[dare2be]

I use my credit card for everything I can...groceries, gas, vending machines...everything. I hardly ever carry cash.

I haven't paid a CC finance charge in over a decade.

My only debt is my house.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

The advice is priceless and the book is free.

Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Don't Buy Stuff

 

[SLY]

He made some of his own problems though too.

I'm not going to bust his balls for 9/11 like some people do (the conspiracy theorists who think he was in on it for instance), but he did cut taxes during wars, which should never happen.

I don't think anyone can argue what he had on day 1 - a strong economy with record-breaking budget surpluses - was worse than what Obama got on day 1 - two wars and an economy in its worst state since the Great Depression.

True, but the economy was headed for disaster before Bush took reign.

 

[elocomotive]

It's a shorter flight to Buffalo to celebrate their Stanley Cup Championship next season...

WHAT? I thought the Caps were the paper champions!

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

True, but the economy was headed for disaster before Bush took reign.

And he proceeded to do everything he could to flush it down the crapper.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

True, but the economy was headed for disaster before Bush took reign.

We were doomed from the start of deregulation.

 

[dash]

WHAT? I thought the Caps were the paper champions!

I like the Sabres defense better than the Caps...The East has some compelling stories this upcoming season.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

1. ok, got it. that's stupid. it should be a percentage, across the board. aka, i agree with you.

2. alright.. that makes more sense now.. and by publicly funded you mean taxes. which, while a burden on the taxpayers, eliminates big corporations 'buying' votes and corrupting who is in power. i like it. i guess the only, thing, i have with that is wouldn't the party leaders be the ones being elected? so in essence it would still be directly voting for your senators. i guess there would only be a handful of them, then they get to pick the rest of the group, almost like the president is elected and the people are trusting of him to appoint the cabinet.. interesting..

3. i'll agree that the tax structure needs to be changed in terms of local and federal taxes, but i'm not sure i agree that getting rid of local taxes fixes the problem. those local taxes go a long way in determining the amount/quality of services a location gets. i dont think the federal government or the national tax payers should decide if a community in alabama wants to build a 30 mile long bike path.. and that isn't something that would ever be allowed in a tight budget nationally.. if you want the town wants that to be built, they should raise their own taxes to get that service.. i suppose you could have votes in that community in alabama and they could pay more money to the federal government with the promise that that money will go towards their bike path? same way you would do it with local taxes.. but then you haven't really done much. just changed where the tax money goes. it would still be spent the same way and raised the same way

Just remember that a lot of the 'wealthy' (relative term) will pay way more into SS than they will ever get out of it. For example, the max benefit some one can get per year is $2,366 a year and a lot of the larger income earners are paying waaaaay more into it a year.

Maximum Social Security retirement benefit

So in a way, it makes sense to cap the amount that can be taxed since there is a cap on the benefit amount.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

Good article, Jeff.

My general party feeling these days is I'm tired of the Dems not having better ideas and I'm tired of the Repubs not having any ideas at all.

I guess that is generally true (at least that is the media narrative). However, in this instance it is the exact opposite. The Dems had two whole years where they controlled the White House and both houses of the legislature where they could have come up with a budget. Instead, they decided to kick the can down the road. We can debate whether it is a good plan or not but the GOP actually has come up with plans. See the Paul Ryan plan. Obama still has yet to come up with a plan.

 

[awaz]

Just remember that a lot of the 'wealthy' (relative term) will pay way more into SS than they will ever get out of it. For example, the max benefit some one can get per year is $2,366 a year and a lot of the larger income earners are paying waaaaay more into it a year.

Maximum Social Security retirement benefit

So in a way, it makes sense to cap the amount that can be taxed since there is a cap on the benefit amount.

in a way i guess it does, but really we're talking about $2400. thats a little over 2% on someone making $100,000 / yr.. i think they can afford to pay a little more in..

i also need to work on my understanding of how social security 'works' also though.. i wasn't aware that there was a flat limit on what you got out. i thought that too, depended on what you put in.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

He made some of his own problems though too.

I'm not going to bust his balls for 9/11 like some people do (the conspiracy theorists who think he was in on it for instance), but he did cut taxes during wars, which should never happen.

I don't think anyone can argue what he had on day 1 - a strong economy with record-breaking budget surpluses - was worse than what Obama got on day 1 - two wars and an economy in its worst state since the Great Depression.

Except for the fact that the economy was already starting to show signs of decline when Clinton was still in office.

Both parties are at fault though. Not everything is Bush's fault. He actually did try to reign in the banks but he didn't have the support of both parties.

New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - NYTimes.com

Karl Rove: President Bush Tried to Rein In Fan and Fred - WSJ.com

Also, as bad as Bush may have been when it comes to spending Obama has already quadrupled the deficit since coming into office.

Projected Deficit

 

[jerseyjigroe]

to be fair though, GW did have to go through the biggest terrorist attack in history.. there was no way he was going to 'win' in the eyes of the public

cutting taxes during a war was stupid though

I'm pretty sure the original tax cuts took place before the war. Also, Obama extended the Bush tax cuts for two more years.

Edit: There were additional tax cuts in '03 so you are correct about that.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

And he proceeded to do everything he could to flush it down the crapper.

And Obama proceeded to take it to the sewage plant.

 

[SLY]

And Obama proceeded to take it to the sewage plant.

Yep.

 

[Bizzle McDizzle]

LOUD NOISES!!!!!

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Except for the fact that the economy was already starting to show signs of decline when Clinton was still in office.

Both parties are at fault though. Not everything is Bush's fault. He actually did try to reign in the banks but he didn't have the support of both parties.

New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - NYTimes.com

Karl Rove: President Bush Tried to Rein In Fan and Fred - WSJ.com

Also, as bad as Bush may have been when it comes to spending Obama has already quadrupled the deficit since coming into office.

Projected Deficit

Fannie and Freddie aren't banks though. He was hands off on the actual banks.

And the economy was showing signs of weakness, yes, but to then come in and issue two unfunded tax cuts while getting involved in two unfunded wars had no possible impact other than to make things worse. I will readily acknowledge that the first cut happened pre 9/11, but as soon as that and the wars happened, taxes should have been immediately raised to compensate. But instead, he doubled down on a losing hand with more tax cuts during war.

And I've never stated that I am happy with what Obama has done with the annual deficit, but there is absolutely no debating that he came into office in worse shape than when Bush took office. Bush hit bad stuff and tried to react. The difference is that Obama was handed a pile of crap on day one. So his job was not only to stem the tide like Bush failed at, but also to then turn things around. By most expert accounts, he has stemmed the tide, but it's not back on the upswing much yet.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

Fannie and Freddie aren't banks though. He was hands off on the actual banks.

And the economy was showing signs of weakness, yes, but to then come in and issue two unfunded tax cuts while getting involved in two unfunded wars had no possible impact other than to make things worse. I will readily acknowledge that the first cut happened pre 9/11, but as soon as that and the wars happened, taxes should have been immediately raised to compensate. But instead, he doubled down on a losing hand with more tax cuts during war.

And I've never stated that I am happy with what Obama has done with the annual deficit, but there is absolutely no debating that he came into office in worse shape than when Bush took office. Bush hit bad stuff and tried to react. The difference is that Obama was handed a pile of crap on day one. So his job was not only to stem the tide like Bush failed at, but also to then turn things around. By most expert accounts, he has stemmed the tide, but it's not back on the upswing much yet.

Too many people just say "it's Bush's fault. End of story." That's just so far from the truth though. Like I pointed out before, if you don't like the tax cuts just remember that Obama extended them two more years. Also, whatever hand Obama was dealt doesn't change the fact that he has only been in office for two and a half years and has already quadrupled the deficit. Some things just can't be blamed on Bush.

 

[elocomotive]

Well, this thread made it an impressive 9 pages before devolving into Bush v. Obama. Pretty good work crew.

 

[dare2be]

"He started it!"

 

[elocomotive]

"He started it!"