OT -- Nelson Mandela died today at age 95

[TobyTyler]

I don't disagree with that. I think part of the reason I'm willing to forgive skeletons in Mandela's closet (perhaps literally) prior to the end of Apartheid is because I'm pretty cynical. I'm not sure you can be a world leader and be a truly good person. I don't mean to cast aspersions on people in leadership, but by the nature of the job you are forced to make decisions that hurt people in a very real sense. You will virtually always have blood on your hands, and this country has plenty of that.

The fact that Mandela may have endorsed or been involved in violence during Apartheid should be surprising to precisely no one. Even Ghandi contemplated physical resistance/violence early in his mission. I don't see that as eliminating the good that such a person subsequently does. People can in fact change, see the error of their ways, and do a great deal of good.

Agreed, and well-said. And if I were in Mandela's shoes I would surely take the same tact. I don't blame him a bit for doing what he felt he had to do but let's not anoint the man a saint. He was a man who served his people and should be a hero to them. He's just not to me.

 

[TobyTyler]

He spent a lot of years in jail a innocent man yet came out to do great things and work towards peace.
May he rest in peace.

He gets credit for that but he was hardly "innocent".

 

[whysies]

But that is not politically expediant for today's politician who so fears the label "racist" that he will say, do and support anything that he believes will avoid that label being put on him. Minorities in this country wield that word like a hammer and with great effectiveness.

If only all those powerful minorities would stop subjugating those power white politicians.

 

[TobyTyler]

If only all those powerful minorities would stop subjugating those power white politicians.

Agreed, those politicians play those dummies like a fiddle. Its what keeps them in power.

 

[whysies]

Agreed, those politicians play those dummies like a fiddle. Its what keeps them in power.

Big time typing fail on my part, I meant "poor" white politicians, not "power" white politicians.

Although, power white (white power?) politicians do sound right up your alley

 

[TobyTyler]

Big time typing fail on my part, I meant "poor" white politicians, not "power" white politicians.

Although, power white (white power?) politicians do sound right up your alley

Its shameful the way the powerful liberal white politicians try to keep their minority constituents poor and ignorant. That way they are dependant upon the handouts big daddy provides and will vote for him.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Ghandi helped free an entire nation from a Colonial ruler. King significantly improved the lot of a small minority group of people of one nation. To say that King's goal was not to improve the lot of his own people is disengenuous at best. A brave man who stood up for his people but not a national hero.

for 'his people'?

you mean americans right?

 

[TobyTyler]

for 'his people'?

you mean americans right?[/QUOTE]

No.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

for 'his people'?

you mean americans right?[/QUOTE]

No.

Even if we accept your premise that he did nothing for whites - which I don't, for the record - are you grouping all minorities together? It's not like it was just blacks who were subjected to segregation.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

And again, I don't see the distinction you are apparently drawing between Ghandi and Mandela.

 

[TobyTyler]

Even if we accept your premise that he did nothing for whites - which I don't, for the record - are you grouping all minorities together? It's not like it was just blacks who were subjected to segregation.

Legal segregation? Yes it was.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

[/B]

Legal segregation? Yes it was.

No, it wasn't.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

That's a United States Supreme Court decision, penned by Chief Justice and former president William Howard Taft, upholding the decision of a Mississippi school district to prohibit a Chinese-American girl from attending the white school, and relegating her instead to the "colored" school.

Most of the cases cited arose, it is true, over the establishment of separate schools as between white pupils and black pupils; but we cannot think that the question is any different, or that any different result can be reached, assuming the cases above cited to be rightly decided, where the issue is as between white pupils and the pupils of the yellow races.

Segregation was by state, and there was a pretty wide range of approaches, but it's indisputable that legally, "separate but equal" was used to segregate minorities other than blacks.

 

[TobyTyler]

No, it wasn't.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

That's a United States Supreme Court decision, penned by Chief Justice and former president William Howard Taft, upholding the decision of a Mississippi school district to prohibit a Chinese-American girl from attending the white school, and relegating her instead to the "colored" school.

Most of the cases cited arose, it is true, over the establishment of separate schools as between white pupils and black pupils; but we cannot think that the question is any different, or that any different result can be reached, assuming the cases above cited to be rightly decided, where the issue is as between white pupils and the pupils of the yellow races.

Segregation was by state, and there was a pretty wide range of approaches, but it's indisputable that legally, "separate but equal" was used to segregate minorities other than blacks.

Ya, I think you are right on this one but the intended target, especially in the south, was blacks.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Ya, I think you are right on this one but the intended target, especially in the south, was blacks.

I'm not disputing that. But King was not working solely for Blacks. And as noted earlier, toward the end of his life, he was actively working for poor people of every race.

Poor People's Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TobyTyler]

I'm not disputing that. But King was not working solely for Blacks. And as noted earlier, toward the end of his life, he was actively working for poor people of every race.

Poor People's Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe it was his reason for doing what he did. Others may have benefited from his work, but I am sure he was fighting for the betterment of his own people. But why do you continue to hijack this thread by bringing up King? The topic is Mandela.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I believe it was his reason for doing what he did. Others may have benefited from his work, but I am sure he was fighting for the betterment of his own people. But why do you continue to hijack this thread by bringing up King? The topic is Mandela.

Was MLK primarily motivated by his desire to help blacks? Yes. Does that make his contributions to the plight of Americans of all colors and creeds any less worthy? I don't think so.

I'm hardly hijacking the thread. But you keep ignoring my question about the difference between Ghandi and Mandela.

 

[TobyTyler]

Was MLK primarily motivated by his desire to help blacks? Yes. Does that make his contributions to the plight of Americans of all colors and creeds any less worthy? I don't think so.

I'm hardly hijacking the thread. But you keep ignoring my question about the difference between Ghandi and Mandela.

One sanctioned and planned dozens of murders and maimings of innocent people, one did not. One refused to renounce violence and one did not.

 

[TobyTyler]

Was MLK primarily motivated by his desire to help blacks? Yes. Does that make his contributions to the plight of Americans of all colors and creeds any less worthy? I don't think so.

I'm hardly hijacking the thread. But you keep ignoring my question about the difference between Ghandi and Mandela.

In my book, the motivation and intent behind ones actions are of utmost importance. Just as important as the actions themselves if you want to understand the real reasons why events happened.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

In my book, the motivation and intent behind ones actions are of utmost importance. Just as important as the actions themselves if you want to understand the real reasons why events happened.

And MLK wanted to help all people who were oppressed. You are distinguishing between a primary and secondary motivations. If we're splitting those hairs, none of the heroes you cited pass muster.

 

[Flyingiguana]

wayne gretzky is a true hero

imo all our coins should be switched from the queen to gretzky