OT -- Nelson Mandela died today at age 95

[TobyTyler]

Considering he spawned one of the greatest terrors the Internet has ever known I highly doubt your father is someone to be admired.

I kid of course.

But I'm serious when I say this: if you actually believe all this shit that you're saying then you're an embarrassment to this country. You're a horrible American and probably an even worse person. It makes me sad that a monster like you would supposedly fight for our freedom and represent us to other countries around the world.

Maybe so. But I never said all people shouldn't have the same rights, I'm saying that whether they had them in South Africa or Alabama, or New Dehli really had no impact on my day to day life and that's a pretty hard thing to argue against. Here's an idea, tell me how apartheid ending in South Africa changed your day to day life at that time for the better, be specific.

 

[TobyTyler]

No slavery was just the oil that ran the machine that allowed those cities to be built

Bullshit. Slavery might have helped build the economies of New Orleans or Montgomery but the great American bastions of commerce and industry were built by educatated men and skilled craftsmen.

 

[yossarian]

Toby, I think honoring someone who was as brave and relentless in his pursuit of racial justice as Mandela was is entirely appropriate, regardless of whether that bravery helped a small country or a large country. He sacrificed 27 yrs of his life in prison for a just cause and then was an honorable leader after. To have someone like that in the world is a good thing and when that person leaves this world it is certainly worth mourning. As for your comments about MLK, if you want a purely utilitarian argument about why it matters to you, MLK campaigned for civil rights and obtained those rights in a peaceful way and he won. Had he never existed, maybe much more violent leaders would have taken the reigns of the civil rights movement and either violently pushed this country into a crisis and won, or have been subject to a violent and repressive response and would have lost. In either event the country would have been much more scarred and damaged as a result than it was because of MLK.
I never thought that a simple mention of the passing of a truly great person would have provoked that response.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Bullshit. Slavery might have helped build the economies of New Orleans or Montgomery but the great American bastions of commerce and industry were built by educatated men and skilled craftsmen.

Not entirely true. Boston in particular profited tremendously from slavery. The construction of slave ships was big business throughout the northeast, and much of the wealth in the Boston area throughout the 1800s came from processing southern cotton.

 

[TobyTyler]

Slaves throughout the south. Indentured servants and slaves built much of the original infrastructure on the northeast coast, including Boston, NYC and Philadelphia. Not to mention the role the triangle trade played in developing the economies of northeastern cities.

No way. The earliest settlers of those towns had no money to buy slaves or to bring them here. Like it or not, this country was built on the ingenuity, business know how and inventiveness of European immigrants. That's just how it is. They took advantage of weaker, more ignorant peoples, yes, but it was those Euros who built the great centers of industry that made this country so powerful.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Toby, I think honoring someone who was as brave and relentless in his pursuit of racial justice as Mandela was is entirely appropriate, regardless of whether that bravery helped a small country or a large country. He sacrificed 27 yrs of his life in prison for a just cause and then was an honorable leader after. To have someone like that in the world is a good thing and when that person leaves this world it is certainly worth mourning. As for your comments about MLK, if you want a purely utilitarian argument about why it matters to you, MLK campaigned for civil rights and obtained those rights in a peaceful way and he won. Had he never existed, maybe much more violent leaders would have taken the reigns of the civil rights movement and either violently pushed this country into a crisis and won, or have been subject to a violent and repressive response and would have lost. In either event the country would have been much more scarred and damaged as a result than it was because of MLK.
I never thought that a simple mention of the passing of a truly great person would have provoked that response.

Really? Come on. How long have you known Toby now?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

No way. The earliest settlers of those towns had no money to buy slaves or to bring them here. Like it or not, this country was built on the ingenuity, business know how and inventiveness of European immigrants. That's just how it is. They took advantage of weaker, more ignorant peoples, yes, but it was those Euros who built the great centers of industry that made this country so powerful.

And many of those European immigrants were indentured servants. Read: slaves.

 

[whysies]

Maybe so. But I never said all people shouldn't have the same rights, I'm saying that whether they had them in South Africa or Alabama, or New Dehli really had no impact on my day to day life and that's a pretty hard thing to argue against. Here's an idea, tell me how apartheid ending in South Africa changed your day to day life at that time for the better, be specific.

Anyone improving the lot of anyone's life benefits us all.

He doesn't have to improve my day to day life specifically for me to think he's a hero. I'm not a sociopathic, narcissistic xenophobe like you.

 

[TobyTyler]

King made this country live up the creeds and ideals that were writing at the founding of this nation but refused to actually live up to them and he changed this country through determination and will, so yes I can say that. Lincoln and Washington both originally had holidays off but they combined them into presidents day which celebrates all presidents. You know just because something doesn't directly impact you does not mean the action someone takes is less remarkable or incredible. Malala Yousafzai actions had no impact on me but her courages acts in her country are remarkable and deserve praise because in the dark she made a stand after knowing that her life was in danger.

Yes he did, along with a lot of others. So if they combined a day to honor all Presidents, which by the way would include Richard Nixon, shouldn't King be lumped into a Civil Rights Leaders day? Or do you think he worked alone?

 

[whysies]

No way. The earliest settlers of those towns had no money to buy slaves or to bring them here. Like it or not, this country was built on the ingenuity, business know how and inventiveness of European immigrants. That's just how it is. They took advantage of weaker, more ignorant peoples, yes, but it was those Euros who built the great centers of industry that made this country so powerful.

If only those Africans hadn't been so damn ignorant, maybe they could have avoided that whole slavery thing.

 

[elw4corps]

Bullshit. Slavery might have helped build the economies of New Orleans or Montgomery but the great American bastions of commerce and industry were built by educatated men and skilled craftsmen.

You don't much about colonial America's economy do you?

 

[yossarian]

Really? Come on. How long have you known Toby now?

Fair point.

 

[TobyTyler]

Who is us? Seems to me that blacks were worse off following the Revolution.

When I say "us" I mean you and me, their descendants who reap the benefits today of all they did. We disagree however that blacks lives were worse after the Revolution or did you think slavery started after that Revolution?

 

[Robotech]

LOL, why do you guys even bother arguing with someone who is trolling and who obviously has too much time on his hands?

RIP Nelson Mandela.

 

[TobyTyler]

Toby, I think honoring someone who was as brave and relentless in his pursuit of racial justice as Mandela was is entirely appropriate, regardless of whether that bravery helped a small country or a large country. He sacrificed 27 yrs of his life in prison for a just cause and then was an honorable leader after. To have someone like that in the world is a good thing and when that person leaves this world it is certainly worth mourning. As for your comments about MLK, if you want a purely utilitarian argument about why it matters to you, MLK campaigned for civil rights and obtained those rights in a peaceful way and he won. Had he never existed, maybe much more violent leaders would have taken the reigns of the civil rights movement and either violently pushed this country into a crisis and won, or have been subject to a violent and repressive response and would have lost. In either event the country would have been much more scarred and damaged as a result than it was because of MLK.
I never thought that a simple mention of the passing of a truly great person would have provoked that response.

That's what I wanted to know. I wanted to make sure you really believed that or were just being politically correct. Thank you for our explanation. Your opinion on King is welcome too but I really just wanted to know why you thought of Mandela the way you did and you explained it eloquently. Someone else brought the King thing up, probably Whysies, because he sees racism in every thought.

 

[elw4corps]

Yes he did, along with a lot of others. So if they combined a day to honor all Presidents, which by the way would include Richard Nixon, shouldn't King be lumped into a Civil Rights Leaders day? Or do you think he worked alone?

Toby why are you taking things to the extreme, presidents day is to remember all the great presidents worth celebrating, if you feel the need to celebrate Richard Nixon, or Polk, or Buchanan more power to you but presidents day is primarly for presidents like Lincoln, Washington, FDR, Kennedy and you can tell by the commercials for that day who are the primary reason for the holiday. Their is no civil rights leaders day and King did not do it alone but to be honest nobody makes major change by themselves everyone needs help and support from people willing to pick up their cause and follow them. King like Medgar Evers paid the price for equality do I believe he deserves a day yes but king represents the spirit and determination of the civil rights movement.

 

[TobyTyler]

If only those Africans hadn't been so damn ignorant, maybe they could have avoided that whole slavery thing.

I believe they would have avodied it. Had they been as powerful and educated as the Europeans they never would have been able to enslave the Africans. The Europeans did the same thing the world's powerful societies have always done to the weaker ones just like the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese and Japanese, etc.

 

[TobyTyler]

Toby why are you taking things to the extreme, presidents day is to remember all the great presidents worth celebrating, if you feel the need to celebrate Richard Nixon, or Polk, or Buchanan more power to you but presidents day is primarly for presidents like Lincoln, Washington, FDR, Kennedy and you can tell by the commercials for that day who are the primary reason for the holiday. Their is no civil rights leaders day and King did not do it alone but to be honest nobody makes major change by themselves everyone needs help and support from people willing to pick up their cause and follow them. King like Medgar Evers paid the price for equality do I believe he deserves a day yes but king represents the spirit and determination of the civil rights movement.

I'd be all for a Civil Rights Day or a National Equality Day where we honored the men who bettered the lives of people, but it would have to be men of all races who made it happen. To say that King is the greatest American who ever lived and thus is the only one with a National holiday named for him is absurd.

 

[TobyTyler]

LOL, why do you guys even bother arguing with someone who is trolling and who obviously has too much time on his hands?

RIP Nelson Mandela.

Because differing opinions on a subject are not tolerated easily here by some. Even your assertion that this is trolling is another example of the intolerance of different viewpoints.

 

[DoobieKeebler]

Yes he did, along with a lot of others. So if they combined a day to honor all Presidents, which by the way would include Richard Nixon, shouldn't King be lumped into a Civil Rights Leaders day? Or do you think he worked alone?

Because to lump Civil Rights leaders together in a "Civil Rights" day would be the complete bastardization of the causes those people people struggled (and many times gave their lives) in the name of. What about different movements? Womens Sufferage was a different struggle than MLK & Malcolm X fighting against the bigotry and oppression of black people in America, and the LGBTQ struggle for marriage and workplace equality is more different still.

Merely looking at "Presidents Day" is a perfect example of why there shouldn't be 1 simple blanket "Civil Rights Day." Besides the fact that Washington's Birthday morphed into the colloquial Presidents Day because corporations and school had/have no idea how to handle Washington and Lincoln both having birthdays that are so close together, the name homogenizes the holiday into nothingness. Presidents Day has no meaning now other than consumerism and material consumption.

Creating a meaningless bastard holiday to celebrate some abstract, unknown number of "Civil Rights" leaders does nothing remotely positive in the remembrance, or upholding the ideals of true American heroes like Dr King, Malcolm X, Susan B Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, or W. E. B. Du Bois.