OT -- Nelson Mandela died today at age 95

[h0ckeysk83r]

I didn't wanna get into this this arguement but I will say one thing. Toby lives in az like I do, AZ is a horrible state to live in regarding some equal rights. Expecially immigration our governor jan brewer is who I think Toby is very similar too. She is the most racist person I have ever seen without technically saying it. Don't even get me started about our old ass racist head sheriff arpaio who has been head for 20+ years who heads the racism department.

Toby has mentioned in everyone of his posts how it's all about how it effects HIM. Clearly a guy who takes for granted what he has in his life and is a true hater....even when it's about sports he has to gripe or disagree about something. He must be an Old bitter man with too much time on his hands.

Guess the reason why he hates the niners so much is because they do nothing for HIM...

 

[-AC-]

I find it interesting that Toby can overlook great men and great heroes simply because they did not affect him personaly...

MLK helped change the greatest nation on earth, which had a trickle down affect that reached around the world. Yet it did not affect Toby personally. Think about that...

A peaceful demonstrator, in a time when nothing should have been peaceful, is something to not be overlooked. A leader who used powerful words rather than anger and violence. The fact that in such a tumultuous time and an incredibly ugly period in American history it had no personal affect on Toby and so many others, IS the reason why MLK is a great hero...

 

[sjballer03]

I find it interesting that Toby can overlook great men and great heroes simply because they did not affect him personaly...

MLK helped change the greatest nation on earth, which had a trickle down affect that reached around the world. Yet it did not affect Toby personally. Think about that...

A peaceful demonstrator, in a time when nothing should have been peaceful, is something to not be overlooked. A leader who used powerful words rather than anger and violence. The fact that in such a tumultuous time and an incredibly ugly period in American history it had no personal affect on Toby and so many others, IS the reason why MLK is a great hero...

 

[Crimsoncrew]

When I say "us" I mean you and me, their descendants who reap the benefits today of all they did. We disagree however that blacks lives were worse after the Revolution or did you think slavery started after that Revolution?

I'm primarily second and third generation American. Most of "us" can't trace our heritage back to the Revolution. If all we're looking at is changing the country as a whole to make it the place it is today, then you can't discount MLK's role.

As for blacks and the impact of the Revolution on their lives, they would have been freed a generation earlier if they had remained under British rule. I'd say that's better off. In my book, Washington was a great man. But if the standard is making all people's lives better, he falls short.

 

[TobyTyler]

I didn't wanna get into this this arguement but I will say one thing. Toby lives in az like I do, AZ is a horrible state to live in regarding some equal rights. Expecially immigration our governor jan brewer is who I think Toby is very similar too. She is the most racist person I have ever seen without technically saying it. Don't even get me started about our old ass racist head sheriff arpaio who has been head for 20+ years who heads the racism department.

Toby has mentioned in everyone of his posts how it's all about how it effects HIM. Clearly a guy who takes for granted what he has in his life and is a true hater....even when it's about sports he has to gripe or disagree about something. He must be an Old bitter man with too much time on his hands.

Guess the reason why he hates the niners so much is because they do nothing for HIM...

Yep. That was my whole point. How can I idolize someone who changed nothing in my life? I can realize that these were brave men who stood up for a cause but I freely admit, I look at the world for how it affects me and mine and to an extent this country.
I gotta admit, I do like Arpaio. How could you not love a guy who when forced by a liberal hispanic judge to give his prisoners cable TV, gives it to them but leaves it on the Weather Channel. Fantastic!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Yep. That was my whole point. How can I idolize someone who changed nothing in my life? I can realize that these were brave men who stood up for a cause but I freely admit, I look at the world for how it affects me and mine and to an extent this country.
I gotta admit, I do like Arpaio. How could you not love a guy who when forced by a liberal hispanic judge to give his prisoners cable TV, gives it to them but leaves it on the Weather Channel. Fantastic!

Didn't MLK affect this country? How did Churchill directly affect you?

 

[Doublejive]

So easily swayed,you think Mandela was some great guy? be skeptical people..

?Saint? Mandela? Not So Fast!



But then again it does not surprise me being that university's and college's are overrun with leftists teaching nothing.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

So easily swayed,you think Mandela was some great guy? be skeptical people..

?Saint? Mandela? Not So Fast!



But then again it does not surprise me being that university's and college's are overrun with leftists teaching nothing.

Not that I give this article very much credence at all - though when I have time I will take a closer look into some of the facts - but I'm struck by something here. This is the first line of the article:

President Barack Obama has compared him to George Washington.

And the first section heading:

Mandela: Communist, Terrorist, Liar

Wasn't George Washington fomenting treason and terrorism? That's kind of inherent in the nature of a revolution. Mandela almost certainly was involved in some way with violence during his 70-year struggle for equality. I don't see that as overshadowing the peaceful transition to true democracy that he led in South Africa. If we're looking for figures on the national stage with no blood innocent blood on their hands, it's an awfully short list. Especially when we narrow it to people who were intimately involved in the overthrow of or fundamental change in the prevailing power structure.

 

[Doublejive]

True Washington at the time was considered that by the elite and i can understand the reasoning when looking at the link but just read it ,it is very eye opening.

There is always messy struggles when it comes to civil strife etc,but the way the media portrays Mandela is very lopsided,has been for years.

 

[whysies]

So easily swayed,you think Mandela was some great guy? be skeptical people..

?Saint? Mandela? Not So Fast!



But then again it does not surprise me being that university's and college's are overrun with leftists teaching nothing.

So you use radical right wing propaganda to try and prove that the world has been brainwashed by the left?

Do you realize how retarded that is?

 

[Ray_Dogg]

True Washington at the time was considered that by the elite and i can understand the reasoning when looking at the link but just read it ,it is very eye opening.

There is always messy struggles when it comes to civil strife etc,but the way the media portrays Mandela is very lopsided,has been for years.

Yes, I also was interested to read about Mandela on wiki. The guy has gotten a free pass from the current media for some hairy stuff which is why he was in jail. MLK did it the peaceful way without causing civilian casualties. MLK wasn't a communist either. His wife Winnie Mandela became the head of a gang responsible for killing children and torturing opponents. Nelson stood by her until she was found guilty. What a trip.

 

[Band of Brothers]

He spent a lot of years in jail a innocent man yet came out to do great things and work towards peace.

May he rest in peace.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

He spent a lot of years in jail a innocent man yet came out to do great things and work towards peace.

May he rest in peace.

"Umkhonto we Sizwe (abbreviated as MK, translated as "Spear of the Nation") was the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), co-founded by Nelson Mandela, which fought against the South African government. MK launched its first guerrilla attacks against government installations on 16 December 1961. It was subsequently classified as a terrorist organization by the South African government and the United States, and banned."

"Landmark events in MK's military activity inside South Africa consisted of actions designed to intimidate the ruling power. In 1983, the Church Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the SA Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 civilian fatalities and 217 persons injured. During the next 10 years, a series of bombings occurred in South Africa, conducted mainly by the military wing of the African National Congress.

In the Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast in 1985, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre killing five people, including three children, shortly before Christmas. In a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the ANC stated that Zondo acted on orders after a recent SADF raid in Lesotho.

A bomb was detonated in a bar on the Durban beach-front in 1986, killing three civilians and injuring 69. Robert McBride received the death penalty for this bombing which became known as the "Magoo's Bar bombing". Although the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Committee called the bombing a "gross violation of human rights", McBride received amnesty and became a senior police officer.

In 1987, an explosion outside a Johannesburg court killed three people and injured 10; a court in Newcastle had been attacked in a similar way the previous year, injuring 24. In 1987, a bomb exploded at a military command centre in Johannesburg, killing one person and injuring 68 personnel.

The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb, killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties."

"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing. Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh's flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution. Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve."

 

[TobyTyler]

Didn't MLK affect this country? How did Churchill directly affect you?

Boy, did he ever! As for Churchill, he was absolutely ctirical to us defeating Germany and being able to live the lives we do today.

 

[TobyTyler]

Not that I give this article very much credence at all - though when I have time I will take a closer look into some of the facts - but I'm struck by something here. This is the first line of the article:

President Barack Obama has compared him to George Washington.

And the first section heading:

Mandela: Communist, Terrorist, Liar

Wasn't George Washington fomenting treason and terrorism? That's kind of inherent in the nature of a revolution. Mandela almost certainly was involved in some way with violence during his 70-year struggle for equality. I don't see that as overshadowing the peaceful transition to true democracy that he led in South Africa. If we're looking for figures on the national stage with no blood innocent blood on their hands, it's an awfully short list. Especially when we narrow it to people who were intimately involved in the overthrow of or fundamental change in the prevailing power structure.

Its interesting that the same government (The United States) who branded Mandela a terrorist and communist because it suited their political agenda at the time now lauds him as a world hero because they find it politically expediant to do now. Its all such nonsense.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Boy, did he ever! As for Churchill, he was absolutely ctirical to us defeating Germany and being able to live the lives we do today.

It's impossible to say that but for Churchill, Germany would have won the war.

 

[TobyTyler]

I'm primarily second and third generation American. Most of "us" can't trace our heritage back to the Revolution. If all we're looking at is changing the country as a whole to make it the place it is today, then you can't discount MLK's role.

As for blacks and the impact of the Revolution on their lives, they would have been freed a generation earlier if they had remained under British rule. I'd say that's better off. In my book, Washington was a great man. But if the standard is making all people's lives better, he falls short.

Absolutely ridiculous. Are you not here now? Are you not currently reaping the benefits of what your predecessors provided for you? Think before you respond, Crimson.

 

[TobyTyler]

It's impossible to say that but for Churchill, Germany would have won the war.

He was still a critical factor. The Russians did the heavy lifting but England was the lone bastion in the West, a symbol that Hitler was not invincible. He was great, great man and, in my opinion, he saved his country. Can you imagine a politician today who could hold a country like that together under that type of duress?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Its interesting that the same government (The United States) who branded Mandela a terrorist and communist because it suited their political agenda at the time now lauds him as a world hero because they find it politically expediant to do now. Its all such nonsense.

I don't disagree with that. I think part of the reason I'm willing to forgive skeletons in Mandela's closet (perhaps literally) prior to the end of Apartheid is because I'm pretty cynical. I'm not sure you can be a world leader and be a truly good person. I don't mean to cast aspersions on people in leadership, but by the nature of the job you are forced to make decisions that hurt people in a very real sense. You will virtually always have blood on your hands, and this country has plenty of that.

The fact that Mandela may have endorsed or been involved in violence during Apartheid should be surprising to precisely no one. Even Ghandi contemplated physical resistance/violence early in his mission. I don't see that as eliminating the good that such a person subsequently does. People can in fact change, see the error of their ways, and do a great deal of good.

 

[TobyTyler]

"Umkhonto we Sizwe (abbreviated as MK, translated as "Spear of the Nation") was the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), co-founded by Nelson Mandela, which fought against the South African government. MK launched its first guerrilla attacks against government installations on 16 December 1961. It was subsequently classified as a terrorist organization by the South African government and the United States, and banned."

"Landmark events in MK's military activity inside South Africa consisted of actions designed to intimidate the ruling power. In 1983, the Church Street bomb was detonated in Pretoria near the SA Air Force Headquarters, resulting in 19 civilian fatalities and 217 persons injured. During the next 10 years, a series of bombings occurred in South Africa, conducted mainly by the military wing of the African National Congress.

In the Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast in 1985, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre killing five people, including three children, shortly before Christmas. In a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the ANC stated that Zondo acted on orders after a recent SADF raid in Lesotho.

A bomb was detonated in a bar on the Durban beach-front in 1986, killing three civilians and injuring 69. Robert McBride received the death penalty for this bombing which became known as the "Magoo's Bar bombing". Although the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Committee called the bombing a "gross violation of human rights", McBride received amnesty and became a senior police officer.

In 1987, an explosion outside a Johannesburg court killed three people and injured 10; a court in Newcastle had been attacked in a similar way the previous year, injuring 24. In 1987, a bomb exploded at a military command centre in Johannesburg, killing one person and injuring 68 personnel.

The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb, killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties."

"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing. Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh's flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution. Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve."

But that is not politically expediant for today's politician who so fears the label "racist" that he will say, do and support anything that he believes will avoid that label being put on him. Minorities in this country wield that word like a hammer and with great effectiveness.