OT: Jonathan Martin checked into looney bin

[Crimsoncrew]

Richie Incognito? Please! Richie Ingognito is not on any upper heirarchy. He's a journeyman offensive lineman who has bounced around the league trying to survive.

I'd say bullying is taking advantage of a weaker individual who through physical weakness, cowardice, or societal position cannot or will not fight back. I have never, never in 45 years of watching and following professional football heard of anyone, anyone claiming he was bullied by another man and felt helpless to stop it. Its unheard of. Are you telling me it doesn't seem highly irregular, even outrageous to you?

Richie Incognito is a nine-year NFL vet with 102 career starts, who went to the pro bowl last year. He is in his fourth year with the Fins, and has begun every season of his career on either the Rams or the Fins. He is apparently on the Fins' leadership counsel. He is clearly at the top of the hierarchy in that locker room.

Despite that, there's no doubt that the Martin story is somewhat unique. We've seen some cases where players haven't been able to handle the pressures of the NFL, but usually it's not the bullying aspects that do it. But players react to things differently. I'd imagine most people who would have a breakdown like this have been weeded out before reaching the pros. But I don't see a tremendous difference from this sort of reaction versus a player snapping and beating the shit out of his teammate. Or disappearing from the team. Or lashing out on social media or in the press. And we see that sort of thing all the time. This is an extreme case, but I don't think it's all that remarkable in and of itself.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I have a lot more confidence in my ability to defend myself when I am armed. No different from anyone else except that I probably am more willing to use that weapon. If someone decides they are going to rob me or beat the shit out of me, I'd be a fool not to use all means at my disposal to prevent that from happenning; would I not? I look at it this way: If you attack me, you deserve what you get.

But that's the point, isn't it? You apply your "behavior when packing" standard to the general populace, most of whom are not armed. It's easy to call someone who is unarmed a coward when you have the benefit of a gun to back up the things you do. That doesn't necessarily make that person a coward, and it certainly doesn't make you brave.

And again, we see a total and utter lack of consistency from you. You believe that Martin should have punched Incognito, yet you also believe, had he done so, Incognito would be justified in shooting him. Given those circumstances, wouldn't Martin be crazy to take physical action? Isn't that just about the last action he should take? If my options were to remove myself from a situation or risk getting shot, there's no doubt what I'd do in the vast majority of situations - excepting extremely unusual circumstances such as defending a loved one, etc.

 

[Sandisfan]

If a player (employee) is diminishing the confidence and performance

of a fellow player then that player is a detriment to the team. In broadcasting there are many is the profession who will be threatened by up and comers and will not help and if possible hurt the careers of fresh talent. There are however GREAT Broadcasters like, Russ Hodges, Bill King, Vin Scully, who have actually helped fellow up and coming broadcasters to become the best that they can. At any points does it sound as if Incognito was helping a teammate to be the best he could be or do you think his actions actually hurt the concentration and development of J. Martin. If his actions and words were detrimental to the team then that player should be fired for hurting the team. The Forty-Niners when bill Walsh came in banned rookie hazing as the point of rookie hazing is to intimidate the newest players so that their performance is lessened so the veterans jobs are more secure..... But that sort of behavior is contrary to the performance of the team. In the team setting, from the owner, to the coaches, to the fans anything that diminishes it's performance is unacceptable.

 

[whysies]

Yes. But its not "internet tough guy" its just us having a laugh at your expense. You aren't going to go all Jonathan Martin on me and run away crying are you?

So in addition to being an Internet tough guy you now have split personalities?

Again, I really and truly hope nobody ever allowed you to handle a gun if your real life world view is anything like your E-world view

 

[michaelwarner]

You always have to love people on message boards asserting how someone else should have dealt with a bad situation. Even better when they act like they are a stronger person than the victim and would have dealt with it better. Best of all when they criticize the victim, but don't say a single bad thing about the asshole that started it. So tough and brave and strong-willed on the keyboard.

I seldom post but read this board nearly every day. This is the source for most college players I don't know and daily Niner news and updates. That said, I've been following this post for a couple days really confused by the things being said by most everyone and haven't found a way to articulate what I've been feeling about what I've been reading here. This is exactly it. Thanks.

 

[TobyTyler]

Richie Incognito is a nine-year NFL vet with 102 career starts, who went to the pro bowl last year. He is in his fourth year with the Fins, and has begun every season of his career on either the Rams or the Fins. He is apparently on the Fins' leadership counsel. He is clearly at the top of the hierarchy in that locker room.

Despite that, there's no doubt that the Martin story is somewhat unique. We've seen some cases where players haven't been able to handle the pressures of the NFL, but usually it's not the bullying aspects that do it. But players react to things differently. I'd imagine most people who would have a breakdown like this have been weeded out before reaching the pros. But I don't see a tremendous difference from this sort of reaction versus a player snapping and beating the shit out of his teammate. Or disappearing from the team. Or lashing out on social media or in the press. And we see that sort of thing all the time. This is an extreme case, but I don't think it's all that remarkable in and of itself.

I am absolutely stunned by it. Just the fact that he would embarrass himself like this in that type of world of bravado and machismo is astounding to me.

 

[TobyTyler]

But that's the point, isn't it? You apply your "behavior when packing" standard to the general populace, most of whom are not armed. It's easy to call someone who is unarmed a coward when you have the benefit of a gun to back up the things you do. That doesn't necessarily make that person a coward, and it certainly doesn't make you brave.
And again, we see a total and utter lack of consistency from you. You believe that Martin should have punched Incognito, yet you also believe, had he done so, Incognito would be justified in shooting him. Given those circumstances, wouldn't Martin be crazy to take physical action? Isn't that just about the last action he should take? If my options were to remove myself from a situation or risk getting shot, there's no doubt what I'd do in the vast majority of situations - excepting extremely unusual circumstances such as defending a loved one, etc.

Ha! You've never been to Arizona have you?

No, it makes me willing to do what it takes to defend my self which is all I would expect of Martin.

Negative. I never said any such thing. Incognito would have gottten what he deserved if martin had punched him. I said guns are OK if someone is attacking you without provocation.

But all this conjecture on your part is nonsense. Just a simple "Fuck you, I'm not doing that" would be all that was needed from Martin. Do you actually believe Incognito would have physically harmed the guy; his teammate? I don't think so.

 

[TobyTyler]

So in addition to being an Internet tough guy you now have split personalities?

Again, I really and truly hope nobody ever allowed you to handle a gun if your real life world view is anything like your E-world view

You can do better, troll.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I am absolutely stunned by it. Just the fact that he would embarrass himself like this in that type of world of bravado and machismo is astounding to me.

It strikes me that this statement is a stark contrast - at least potentially - with your claims of cowardice. Couldn't it be the far braver action to buck convention and speak out against a wrong than to simply go ahead and take it because everyone else does? Now, I'm not saying that's what Martin did in this case, but we know very little about the nuances of this case. And certainly saying he isn't going to play takes a great deal of courage, albeit in a somewhat unconventional way.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

I think Martin did well under the circumstances. He could have just let the coach and GM hear the voicemail before he left though.

Remember Brooks busted a bottle on the head of Divens because of bullying, so keep some perspective.

 

[TobyTyler]

It strikes me that this statement is a stark contrast - at least potentially - with your claims of cowardice. Couldn't it be the far braver action to buck convention and speak out against a wrong than to simply go ahead and take it because everyone else does? Now, I'm not saying that's what Martin did in this case, but we know very little about the nuances of this case. And certainly saying he isn't going to play takes a great deal of courage, albeit in a somewhat unconventional way.

No, I think it is an extreme act of cowardice and lack of self worth. And again, I never said he should "simply go ahead and take it". You can't be serious with that one can you? How many times have I said he should have stood up for himself and refuse to accept that kind of treatment?

I heard Tom Tolbert say on the radio today that the Incognito thing was bizarre and he knew very few people who would act like Incognito did but he said he knew absolutely no one who would sit there and take it like Martin did. I agree with that.

 

[TobyTyler]

I think Martin did well under the circumstances. He could have just let the coach and GM hear the voicemail before he left though.

Remember Brooks busted a bottle on the head of Divens because of bullying, so keep some perspective.

What? I thought Divens took Brooks' keys to prevent him from driving drunk.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Ha! You've never been to Arizona have you?

No, it makes me willing to do what it takes to defend my self which is all I would expect of Martin.

Negative. I never said any such thing. Incognito would have gottten what he deserved if martin had punched him. I said guns are OK if someone is attacking you without provocation.

But all this conjecture on your part is nonsense. Just a simple "Fuck you, I'm not doing that" would be all that was needed from Martin. Do you actually believe Incognito would have physically harmed the guy; his teammate? I don't think so.

I haven't been to AZ, other than flying through. I'm willing to bet that greater than 50% of the population is not carrying a loaded firearm at any given moment, though.

What amount of verbal provocation justifies physical retaliation? And how far could Martin go before Incognito would be justified in using potentially lethal force? A single punch? Two? This strikes me as the slipperiest of slopes.

I agree it's highly unlikely Incognito would have done anything physical to harm Martin or his loved ones. But you can be injured in far more ways than just physically. And the bottom line is that I don't know the full story here. I don't know what Martin did or didn't do. I don't know the full extent of what Incognito did. And I'm not inclined to judge people who have mental breakdowns, if that's what happened.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

No, I think it is an extreme act of cowardice and lack of self worth. And again, I never said he should "simply go ahead and take it". You can't be serious with that one can you? How many times have I said he should have stood up for himself and refuse to accept that kind of treatment?

I heard Tom Tolbert say on the radio today that the Incognito thing was bizarre and he knew very few people who would act like Incognito did but he said he knew absolutely no one who would sit there and take it like Martin did. I agree with that.

It is an odd case, no doubt about it. Again, I don't know the circumstances of the case well enough to pass judgment on the victim. Obviously you're not hindered by that consideration.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

What? I thought Divens took Brooks' keys to prevent him from driving drunk.

No, Divens had already driven Brooks home in Brooks car. Then Divens pretended to throw the keys in the bushes when Brooks asked for them. There was bad blood between them from before as well. I think Divens had been bagging on Brooks for awhile and this was the breaking point.

 

[TobyTyler]

No, Divens had already driven Brooks home in Brooks car. Then Divens pretended to throw the keys in the bushes when Brooks asked for them. There was bad blood between them from before as well. I think Divens had been bagging on Brooks for awhile and this was the breaking point.

Yes, I remember hearing that now.

 

[TobyTyler]

I haven't been to AZ, other than flying through. I'm willing to bet that greater than 50% of the population is not carrying a loaded firearm at any given moment, though.

What amount of verbal provocation justifies physical retaliation? And how far could Martin go before Incognito would be justified in using potentially lethal force? A single punch? Two? This strikes me as the slipperiest of slopes.

I agree it's highly unlikely Incognito would have done anything physical to harm Martin or his loved ones. But you can be injured in far more ways than just physically. And the bottom line is that I don't know the full story here. I don't know what Martin did or didn't do. I don't know the full extent of what Incognito did. And I'm not inclined to judge people who have mental breakdowns, if that's what happened.

Martin should have fought him in the clubhouse where things couldn't escalate too far but where he would gain the respect of his teammates.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

No, Divens had already driven Brooks home in Brooks car. Then Divens pretended to throw the keys in the bushes when Brooks asked for them. There was bad blood between them from before as well. I think Divens had been bagging on Brooks for awhile and this was the breaking point.

My recollection is it was an odd case all around. Divens was the younger player - though also the far bigger man. I don't think he was the bully in this one, if anything I think Brooks was the more aggressive of the two, certainly the night of the bottle incident, and in general. They were friends, but at some BBQ over the summer they were fooling around and Brooks got hurt somehow - nothing serious as memory serves. I don't recall how that actually started, but if anything it was along the lines of Brooks bullying and Divens lashing out as a result.

The night Divens was hurt, there was something about Brooks asking for his keys as if to drive, and Divens kind of teasing him. Not sure of the specifics there.

 

[Jikkle]

The case is odd all around and I think you have a mixture of a guy in Martin that's soft and overly sensitive combined with a guy in Incognito who for all intents and purposes is the exact opposite and just a grade A jerk.

So just my own personal guess is you have instances were Incognito was abrasive and forceful but Martin took that as bullying and was intimidated by it. It was likely a case of two guys on completely different wavelengths not understanding each other at all.

The offensive line is typically the tightest group of guys on the team so it's unusual when you have a case where they don't at least all mutually get along so even as big of a jerk as Incognito is I don't recall him having problems with his fellow offensive lineman.

Martin is most likely soft which makes you very much a pariah in an NFL (well any sports) locker room and it eventually got to him.

I'm not saying Martin is a bad guy or wrong but you need a certain mental makeup to make it in sports and he just doesn't have it.

 

[Sandisfan]

To what purpose did Incognito get after Martin.

Martin should have fought him in the clubhouse where things couldn't escalate too far but where he would gain the respect of his teammates.

As I said before Great people help others to greater achievements. This was detrimental to the team and his teammate...
The only achievement here would take a fellow players' attention away from his job and and keep him from playing his best. I have heard fellow employees say when someone screwed up that it would make them look better ( IT DOESN'T). I can only think that Incognito was the one who was fearful of losing his job and if the player next to him looked bad that it would take attention away from his own performance.

Let me ask you if you were the player personnel guy who drafted players, would you want the veterans messing with the heads of the players you drafted and interfere with their development?

On the Sharks team when they hired Al Sims he let the veterans who were on their last legs trash the rookies and young players messing with their development... When Management found out about it from some of the veterans who didn't like it and the young players who wouldn't say anything until asked. Sims was Fired very quickly. Loser players who are trying to extend their careers at the expense of the team need to go post haste.