OPS

[Swangin]

Once again it depends on how you intend to use the stat, but adding 2 stats that are calculated differently is very dangerous(mathematically speaking), you are making assumptions that the 2 stats are created equal...


As for my Individually made up statistics i do include walks into my version of slugging percentage... So i do add my version of OBP to my version of slugging to make my version of OPS...

And a lot of people didn't like the fact that both are created equal. Most think OBP should factor in more, and I myself think Slg% should. But we should never just pick out one stat as the end all over all other stats. And even if both are created equal or one a little more than the other, it still allows you to be able to get a pretty good idea of production from this stat.

 

[steveringo]

And a lot of people didn't like the fact that both are created equal. Most think OBP should factor in more, and I myself think Slg% should. But we should never just pick out one stat as the end all over all other stats. And even if both are created equal or one a little more than the other, it still allows you to be able to get a pretty good idea of production from this stat.

This is important to remember.

You gotta look at everything.

OBP is very important for leadoff hitters - but you might also need to consider speed on the basepaths. SLG is important for clean-up hitters, but you also need to consider strike-out ratios...

Hopefully we can all agree that OPS tells us a little more that OBP or SLG alone.....

Are we going to start a WAR thread? How about WPA or BABIP?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is important to remember.

You gotta look at everything.

OBP is very important for leadoff hitters - but you might also need to consider speed on the basepaths. SLG is important for clean-up hitters, but you also need to consider strike-out ratios...

Hopefully we can all agree that OPS tells us a little more that OBP or SLG alone.....

Are we going to start a WAR thread? How about WPA or BABIP?

my whole intention in making this thread was not to argue which stats we like better, or which stats we dont like at all... I dont like WAR, but thats totally different than what this thread is about... My whole question is if the stat OPS is calculated logically... i dont believe it is... "BAPS" makes more sense than OPS... Every stat has its own intention, i just feel like the calculation for OPS is a bit muddled, even if the end result is pretty accurate...

 

[Swangin]

my whole intention in making this thread was not to argue which stats we like better, or which stats we dont like at all... I dont like WAR, but thats totally different than what this thread is about... My whole question is if the stat OPS is calculated logically... i dont believe it is... "BAPS" makes more sense than OPS... Every stat has its own intention, i just feel like the calculation for OPS is a bit muddled, even if the end result is pretty accurate...

Well I don't know what you could gain from "BAPS" that isn't gonna give you any added perspective for a player. OBP/SLG gives you added perspective for a player as far as productivity and value.

 

[steveringo]

my whole intention in making this thread was not to argue which stats we like better, or which stats we dont like at all... I dont like WAR, but thats totally different than what this thread is about... My whole question is if the stat OPS is calculated logically... i dont believe it is... "BAPS" makes more sense than OPS... Every stat has its own intention, i just feel like the calculation for OPS is a bit muddled, even if the end result is pretty accurate...

BAPS is adding Batting Average and Slugging. Why would you want to do that? Slugging Percentage is an extension of Batting Average. The both have Hits on top and AB on the bottom

BA = H/AB.
SLG = TB/AB

It sounds like you would like to add BB & HBP into a modified slugging formula - but to do that, you should change the denominator to PA.

Something like:


(1B) + (2B x 2) + (3B x 3) + (HR x 4) + (BB) + (HBP)
____________________________________________

PA

 

[Swangin]

Well I don't know what you could gain from "BAPS" that isn't gonna give you any added perspective for a player. OBP/SLG gives you added perspective for a player as far as productivity and value.

wOBA, AVG/OBP/SLG is out there and

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I guess you guys don't really understand my argument. Either u guys have not read everything or I just suck at explaining things. I am sure that it is that I suck at explaining things.

 

[BigDDude]

I guess you guys don't really understand my argument. Either u guys have not read everything or I just suck at explaining things. I am sure that it is that I suck at explaining things.

I suffer from a similar affliction, so I sympathise. For me, I get misunderstood a lot, and tend to have to go into long winded diatribes attempting to get my real point or meaning across.

 

[BigDDude]

BAPS is adding Batting Average and Slugging. Why would you want to do that? Slugging Percentage is an extension of Batting Average. The both have Hits on top and AB on the bottom

BA = H/AB.
SLG = TB/AB

It sounds like you would like to add BB & HBP into a modified slugging formula - but to do that, you should change the denominator to PA.

Something like:


(1B) + (2B x 2) + (3B x 3) + (HR x 4) + (BB) + (HBP)
____________________________________________

PA

This is they type of stuff that throws me. That is why I avoid taking these advanced stats head on, and instead defer to certain baseball talking heads who I feel DO understand this well, and I follow their advice accordingly.

The next most important thing than knowing an answer to a question is knowing where to find the answer to said question.........

 

[MilkSpiller22]

BAPS is adding Batting Average and Slugging. Why would you want to do that? Slugging Percentage is an extension of Batting Average. The both have Hits on top and AB on the bottom

BA = H/AB.
SLG = TB/AB

It sounds like you would like to add BB & HBP into a modified slugging formula - but to do that, you should change the denominator to PA.

Something like:


(1B) + (2B x 2) + (3B x 3) + (HR x 4) + (BB) + (HBP)
____________________________________________

PA

I do already have my own slugging percentage formula that looks like

(.75*(HBB+IBB))+(BB-IBB)+(1.7*1B)+(2.4*2B)+(3.1*3B)+(3.8*HR)
__________________________________________________________
PA


But once again that is not what this thread is about...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I will try to clearify what my intention of this thread was...

OPS should be BAPS because:

1. OBP uses PA while slugging uses AB... the problem with this is that one stat is intended for every time up while the other is only intended for every official at bat... so the 2 stats are measured in different durations...

2. One stat includes walks, HBP and others, the other stat doesnt... you guys see this as a positive, but it is a negative, it creates 2 stats that are intended for different things, and therefore unequal. adding unequal important statistics creates a calculation bias...


Just because the end result of the statistic is something that looks useful, does not mean the calculation was accurate and logical...

 

[steveringo]

I will try to clearify what my intention of this thread was...

OPS should be BAPS because:

1. OBP uses PA while slugging uses AB... the problem with this is that one stat is intended for every time up while the other is only intended for every official at bat... so the 2 stats are measured in different durations...

2. One stat includes walks, HBP and others, the other stat doesnt... you guys see this as a positive, but it is a negative, it creates 2 stats that are intended for different things, and therefore unequal. adding unequal important statistics creates a calculation bias...


Just because the end result of the statistic is something that looks useful, does not mean the calculation was accurate and logical...

Your argument for why it doesn't work, is the exact reason the stat exists.

They are indeed calculated differently - and they indeed mean two different things - and they are indeed intended for two different things. They are apples and oranges, as you have said.

SLG and OBP are both excellent stats. Those with great OBP are very useful and those with great OPS are very useful. Doesn't logic follow that those with both great OBP & SLG are even more useful? What easier way to measure this that to add them together?

 

[steveringo]

BAPS top ten:
Miguel Cabrera
Chris Davis
Evan Longoria
Alex Gordon
Mike Trout
Alex Rios
Mitch Moreland
Carlos Santana
James Loney
Jose Bautista

OPS top ten
Miguel Cabrera
Chris Davis
Evan Longoria
Jose Bautista
Carlos Santana
Mike Trout
Alex Rios
Prince Fielder
Alex Gordon
Mitch Moreland

 

[MilkSpiller22]

BAPS top ten:
Miguel Cabrera
Chris Davis
Evan Longoria
Alex Gordon
Mike Trout
Alex Rios
Mitch Moreland
Carlos Santana
James Loney
Jose Bautista

OPS top ten
Miguel Cabrera
Chris Davis
Evan Longoria
Jose Bautista
Carlos Santana
Mike Trout
Alex Rios
Prince Fielder
Alex Gordon
Mitch Moreland

First off, what does this prove?? 2nd off you clearly dont understand what this thread is about...

 

[steveringo]

First off, what does this prove?? 2nd off you clearly dont understand what this thread is about...

Those top tens do not prove anything. I simply calculated the stat for you.

And I understand what your intent was. I am trying to say that is it does not matter that OBP uses PA and SLG uses AB. I am trying to say, the fact that they use different denominators makes OPS a more inclusive stat...

Your assumption that it is wrong or flawed that adding a stat with BB & HBP to a stat that does not use it - is wrong. You can argue the weight of each - or the bias of one or the the other, but why? It is what it is. A simple measurement.

You are actually thinking too much. As stated in this thread numerous times, there are no end-all stats. Every stat has a different meaning. I hope you understand why the SABR guys like OPS more than SLG & OBP alone...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Those top tens do not prove anything. I simply calculated the stat for you.

And I understand what your intent was. I am trying to say that is it does not matter that OBP uses PA and SLG uses AB. I am trying to say, the fact that they use different denominators makes OPS a more inclusive stat...

Your assumption that it is wrong or flawed that adding a stat with BB & HBP to a stat that does not use it - is wrong. You can argue the weight of each - or the bias of one or the the other, but why? It is what it is. A simple measurement.

You are actually thinking too much. As stated in this thread numerous times, there are no end-all stats. Every stat has a different meaning. I hope you understand why the SABR guys like OPS more than SLG & OBP alone...

Once again my problem is not with the statistic itself... it is with the calculation... i think that hte calculation is too muddled... Its like grabbing to random stats and adding them to eachother... Just because we like the results does not mean that it is calculated in a logical way...

Of course i understand and agree that the results of OPS is a better indicator than OBP and slugging by itself... I think that you are missing that my point is mostly a mathematical one...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

"BAPS" is more logical and more mathematically correct than our traditional OPS...

 

[steveringo]

Once again my problem is not with the statistic itself... it is with the calculation... i think that hte calculation is too muddled... Its like grabbing to random stats and adding them to eachother... Just because we like the results does not mean that it is calculated in a logical way...

Of course i understand and agree that the results of OPS is a better indicator than OBP and slugging by itself... I think that you are missing that my point is mostly a mathematical one...

It may be muddled, but it is really a simple stat. Everyone knows what OBP is, and everyone knows what SLG is. Adding them together just makes another simple stat.

I think your "slg" stat is great, but you cannot call it 'slg', since it includes BB & HPB. The fact that you include IBB & give different weights is awesome. This stat would actually be a repalcement for OPS - since it is basically what OPS is calculating. I'd be very curious to see the top 20. If you have it, post it. If not, I can calculate it for you...


(.75*(HBB+IBB))+(BB-IBB)+(1.7*1B)+(2.4*2B)+(3.1*3B)+(3.8*HR)
__________________________________________________ ________
PA

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It may be muddled, but it is really a simple stat. Everyone knows what OBP is, and everyone knows what SLG is. Adding them together just makes another simple stat.

I think your "slg" stat is great, but you cannot call it 'slg', since it includes BB & HPB. The fact that you include IBB & give different weights is awesome. This stat would actually be a repalcement for OPS - since it is basically what OPS is calculating. I'd be very curious to see the top 20. If you have it, post it. If not, I can calculate it for you...


(.75*(HBB+IBB))+(BB-IBB)+(1.7*1B)+(2.4*2B)+(3.1*3B)+(3.8*HR)
__________________________________________________ ________
PA

Talking semantics, but that formula can not be the OBP- it shows the productivity per at bat, just like slugging, it just includes some non hitting stats... I agree that calling it slugging is misleading, but i do think it would take sluggings place in an advanced statistics...
Just for the record my version of OBP is(BB+H+HBP-CS-GIDP)/PA

 

[element1286]

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