OPS

[JDM]

The construction of every stat is arbitrary. You could weight home runs more because they are a guaranteed run, as opposed to other hits possibly resulting in nothing. Passer rating is as arbitrary as they come, but it is the primary stat used to compare QBs.

 

[steveringo]

JDM, just because you like the end result of a stat does not mean it is a logical stat or well calculated stat... I agree that the results look pretty and is a good indicator to who is better... but just because it is good looking does not mean it is accurate...

I think you are trying to apply logic where it isn't needed. You are over thinking stats and are using a worthless stat to back up your dizzying arguments.

H . . . . . . . (1B) + (2B x 2) + (3B x 3) + (HR x 4)
---- + -----------------------------------------
AB . . . . . . . . . . . . . AB

Adding two stats with only hits in the numerator and only AB in the denominator - with no additional variants - is just a waste of time.

 

[JDM]

Lol I already showed him that distributed out. You just add one to each coefficient up top. Hardly a significant distinction.

 

[steveringo]

Lol I already showed him that distributed out. You just add one to each coefficient up top. Hardly a significant distinction.

Check out this entire thread. A number of people have been trying to explain this....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Lol I already showed him that distributed out. You just add one to each coefficient up top. Hardly a significant distinction.

why does it have to be a significant distinction??? Just because OPS is more complex than "BAPS" does not mean it is more accurate... good job bringing in mathematics, but not understanding the numbers behind it!!!

 

[JDM]

OPS measures what is intended to. BAPS would not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

OPS measures what is intended to. BAPS would not.

Once again what is OPS intended to measure???

 

[steveringo]

Once again what is OPS intended to measure???

One's combined ability to get on base and hit for power.

It is the sum of a players On Base Percentage - which measures how often they reach base per plate appearance - and their slugging percentage - which is a players batting average with additional weight given to extra base hits.

I though you had previously posted that you understood this?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

One's combined ability to get on base and hit for power.

It is the sum of a players On Base Percentage - which measures how often they reach base per plate appearance - and their slugging percentage - which is a players batting average with additional weight given to extra base hits.

I though you had previously posted that you understood this?

I know what OPS is... i was wondering if its true intention would prove me wrong... you wrote what OPS is... If the original intention was just to take 2 popular stats and add it to make a stat that looks good then there is no argument, but i do not see any logical reason for these 2 stats to be together in the simple form that these stats are... Again, if walks and HBP are added to slugging(change the name of slugging??) then i love OPS, and it makes sense...

 

[Lord Scalious]

I know what OPS is... i was wondering if its true intention would prove me wrong... you wrote what OPS is... If the original intention was just to take 2 popular stats and add it to make a stat that looks good then there is no argument, but i do not see any logical reason for these 2 stats to be together in the simple form that these stats are... Again, if walks and HBP are added to slugging(change the name of slugging??) then i love OPS, and it makes sense...

It makes no sense because Slugging is calculated by ABs..

To accurate judge the value of Walks..you have to do it by plate appearance.

You would just be trading one flawed stat for another..

 

[steveringo]

I know what OPS is... i was wondering if its true intention would prove me wrong... you wrote what OPS is... If the original intention was just to take 2 popular stats and add it to make a stat that looks good then there is no argument, but i do not see any logical reason for these 2 stats to be together in the simple form that these stats are... Again, if walks and HBP are added to slugging(change the name of slugging??) then i love OPS, and it makes sense...

I know you know what OPS is. I was being facetious.... You keep bringing up logic and mathmatics when you shouldn't be. You are overthinking something very simple.

1) OBP tells you something about a player. It is a good stat. A little better than BA.

2) SLG tells you something comppletely different. It is a good stat. A little better than BA.

3) It is good to have a higher OBP. It is good to have a higher SLG.

4) Logically, it would be good to be good at both. How can we easily tell who is good at both? ...Add them together.

It is what is is.


The "new" stat you are looking for is a Weighted On Base Average. Luckily wOBA already exists.
wOBA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Major League Leaderboards » 2013 » Batters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I know you know what OPS is. I was being facetious.... You keep bringing up logic and mathmatics when you shouldn't be. You are overthinking something very simple.

1) OBP tells you something about a player. It is a good stat. A little better than BA.

2) SLG tells you something comppletely different. It is a good stat. A little better than BA.

3) It is good to have a higher OBP. It is good to have a higher SLG.

4) Logically, it would be good to be good at both. How can we easily tell who is good at both? ...Add them together.

It is what is is.


The "new" stat you are looking for is a Weighted On Base Average. Luckily wOBA already exists.
wOBA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Major League Leaderboards » 2013 » Batters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

I have seen wOBA, i like what it tries to do, but i think every formula should be easily calculated by the fans who want to calculate it(even if that sacrifices accuracy), wOBA arbitrarily chose values for each hit... and it also does not include non intentional walks... Like i said if the whole intention of OPS was to take 2 of the more popular stats and combine them then i can not argue with that logic, but i dont see any other reason that you can combine the 2 statistics the way they are calcualted...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have seen wOBA, i like what it tries to do, but i think every formula should be easily calculated by the fans who want to calculate it(even if that sacrifices accuracy), wOBA arbitrarily chose values for each hit... and it also does not include non intentional walks... Like i said if the whole intention of OPS was to take 2 of the more popular stats and combine them then i can not argue with that logic, but i dont see any other reason that you can combine the 2 statistics the way they are calcualted...

I meant intentional walks

 

[steveringo]

I have seen wOBA, i like what it tries to do, but i think every formula should be easily calculated by the fans who want to calculate it(even if that sacrifices accuracy), wOBA arbitrarily chose values for each hit... and it also does not include non intentional walks... Like i said if the whole intention of OPS was to take 2 of the more popular stats and combine them then i can not argue with that logic, but i dont see any other reason that you can combine the 2 statistics the way they are calcualted...

wOBA is also like WAR.... different formulas on different websites...
But, why should everything be easily calculatable? As long as you get the gist of what your looking at, just click away. The more you get into stats, the more complicated it gets. And, the more you add to a stat, the more you have to consider wieght. Is stealing second the same as hitting a double? Why aren't SB added to SLG? How much weight should the HPB really get? If an intentional walk moves a runner on base, shouldn't it be worth something?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

wOBA is also like WAR.... different formulas on different websites...
But, why should everything be easily calculatable? As long as you get the gist of what your looking at, just click away. The more you get into stats, the more complicated it gets. And, the more you add to a stat, the more you have to consider wieght. Is stealing second the same as hitting a double? Why aren't SB added to SLG? How much weight should the HPB really get? If an intentional walk moves a runner on base, shouldn't it be worth something?

I like complex stats but if i dont understand why or how they chose a number(look at wOBA they arbitrarily give values with no pattern to each hit, HBP is for some reason higher than BB, why??) the more complex the better, but too complex is too confusing... patterns are great for these formulas... earlier in this thread i put my version of slugging(which is similar to wOBA) but i used an easily to follow pattern to value each hit... Formulas that you cant calculate yourself, is hard to trust even if they give the results that you want...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But i am digressing... Back to saying "BAPS" is better than OPS...

 

[romeo212000]

But i am digressing... Back to saying "BAPS" is better than OPS...

And back to me saying its not.

 

[Lord Scalious]

But i am digressing... Back to saying "BAPS" is better than OPS...

lol

the point of these Stats is to gauge a hitters value and ability..

OPS does that better than BAPS.. End of story. For the very simple reason that OBP is better than BA...

They both have their flaws for different reasons..

OBP tells us the rate of opportunities for scoring runs the hitter. This aspects is needed to be looked at in order to figure out how productive a hitter is.

BA doesn't tell us the rate of opportunities nearly as good enough..and just adding it to slugging is redundant.. You would be better off just using Slugging by itself

Now if your argument is using Slugging and OBP individually is better than adding them together because of the formulaic flaw. Ok, I wouldn't disagree. Just like I would say its better to look at k% and bb% separately instead of using K/BB rate..

But saying its better then a Redundant Stat like BAPS, that isn't even as encompassing as OPS? No way dude..

 

[steveringo]

But i am digressing... Back to saying "BAPS" is better than OPS...

Re-read this thread.

Then pick up an 8th grade algebra book.

BA and SLG have only hits in the numerator, and only BA in the denomintor. Adding them together does give any sort of added value. Baseball statisticians, would call BAPS - WSP - (weakend slugging percent, waterred down slugging percent, worthless stat proposal)....

OPS tells you something that SLG does not. BAPS does not.... BAPS just makes singles hitters better than doubles hitters.

I'm not sure what else we can say.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Re-read this thread.

Then pick up an 8th grade algebra book.

BA and SLG have only hits in the numerator, and only BA in the denomintor. Adding them together does give any sort of added value. Baseball statisticians, would call BAPS - WSP - (weakend slugging percent, waterred down slugging percent, worthless stat proposal)....

OPS tells you something that SLG does not. BAPS does not.... BAPS just makes singles hitters better than doubles hitters.

I'm not sure what else we can say.

Actually "BAPS" would not be useless... given it would not be the same as OPS, but it certainly is not useless... as, Slugging is pretty much the expected value per AB, and BA average is how often you get a hit... by joining them together you can get a value that shows how good someone is with their bat, especially since you dont have to be a power hitter to have a good bat...
What i have been missing in this thread is that "BAPS" and OPS have different intentions... but the problems with OPS is obvious, and the reasons i have been saying "BAPS" is better is all reasons why OPS is not good... Sometimes fans just look at a stat and like the results and dont realize that there is no logic put into the stat... And with OPS it is clearly calculated with no respect to the game of baseball or the integrity of mathematics and statistics... All stats have flaws, and all stats can not stand alone, but do not be fooled by stats that look good...