Ongoing NHL thread - Part III

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Rounding up never hurts I guess, given that Toews has hit 70 points just once in his 10 year career...

The Cups argument is always laughable to me. This isn't basketball, a player doesn't carry their team to a cup. Was Toews a big contributor? Yes. Do hockey players only play 1/3rd of every game? Yes. So, 66% of the time, Toews had nothing at all to do with his team winning cups. To get all computer boyish with fancy numbers.

The Backstrom comparison is more than valid. Backstrom has outproduced Toews on offense and defense his entire career, the super duper numbers don't lie.

Toews has 583 career points in 679 career games, or .859 points per game, or 70.44 points per 82 games. In 4 seasons he was on a 70 point pace had he played the full 82 game schedule. He's an average 70 point scorer by all logic, at least up until last season.

With regards to the "Cups argument", he was the team's leading playoff scorer in the 2010 Cup run and 2nd-leading in the 2015 Cup run. To say the Hawks don't win those Cups without him is an argument I'm rather comfortable making.

And sure, you can compare him with Backstrom. Nobody said you couldn't. I just said playoffs matter and Backstrom is in the Marleau/Stamkos/Pacioretty class of guys who disappear in the postseason. Toews doesn't. That's a huge factor when making any comparison between the two and one Toews claims easily.

 

[Duke of Douchington]

Toews has 583 career points in 679 career games, or .859 points per game, or 70.44 points per 82 games. In 3 of seasons he was on a 70 point pace had he played the full 82 game schedule. He's an average 70 point scorer by all logic, at least up until last season.

With regards to the "Cups argument", he was the team's leading playoff scorer in the 2010 Cup run and 2nd-leading in the 2015 Cup run. To say the Hawks don't win those Cups without him is an argument I'm rather comfortable making.

And sure, you can compare him with Backstrom. Nobody said you couldn't. I just said playoffs matter and Backstrom is in the Marleau/Stamkos/Pacioretty class of guys who disappear in the postseason. Toews doesn't. That's a huge factor when making any comparison between the two and one Toews claims easily.

- Hits 70 points in 10% of his seasons.
- "70 point player" because of "projected" stats. (so I guess he's a 45 pt "projected player" now eh?)
- Meanwhile, Backstrom scores at a 60 point pace in the playoffs, but somehow he's "disappearing"

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

- Hits 70 points in 10% of his seasons.
- "70 point player" because of "projected" stats. (so I guess he's a 45 pt "projected player" now eh?)

Would you sleep better at night if I called him a 66 point player? It makes very little difference to me.

- Meanwhile, Backstrom scores at a 60 point pace in the playoffs, but somehow he's "disappearing"

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Obvious ?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Obvious ?

He omitted Lochte.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

All things equal, the only 4 in the league right now who should even be considered are Sid, Ovie, Jagr and Thornton. Those are the only 4 players in the league right now who would be considered sure-as-shit Hall of Famers were they to retire right this minute save Hanks Lundqvist and Zetterberg.

EDIT: And Iggy.

 

[dash]

Am I too much of a Flames homer in suggesting Jarome Iginla is a top 100 NHL player of all time?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Am I too much of a Flames homer in suggesting Jarome Iginla is a top 100 NHL player of all time?

Yeah, good point.

He'd probably be a first-thought inclusion had he played more post-season hockey, not that the lack of that was his fault.

 

[Duke of Douchington]

Obvious ?

Absolutely incredible if Thornton is left off. Guy is likely to be Top 15 in points when he retires playing in the dead puck era.

 

[dash]

patiently waiting for DW to inform us that Cammi Granato > lil Joe Thornton



/I'd put Jumbo Joe in the top 100 NHL players of all time.

 

[esls79]

The playoffs matter is where Toews excels. Don't look just at point totals in the playoffs, look at the game situation where he scores - they are big moments series changers. He's had enough of those to basically over rate the rest of his overall game I think. Top 100 NHL'er of all time - not quite. Top 100 hockey player of all time easily.

/just off the top of my head from the non Cup years- game 7 of the Western Quarters against Vancouver in 11 - he scores a short handed goal with just under 3 minutes left in game seven on the road to tie it - sure they lost in OT, but whatever - then the lockout year, he scores an OT winner in game 5 against the Yotes, sure they lost the series but whatever. And more recently game 7 against the Ducks in 15 - he scores the first two goals of game 7 to set the tone and the Blackhawks never look back. And his big goals on the international stage - gold medal game of 2010, 2014, he set up the game winner of the recent world cup in 2016 - the list goes on and that's why why he's so over rated.

 

[esls79]

And also, what stats are used to determine a top 100 NHL'er of all time? goals and assists, Cups, major trophies, All Star appearances? What about PIM's, toughness, other less tangible things? Look at Dale Hunter, he has like the second or third most PIM's of all time, scored over 1000 points in his NHL career, why is he not anywhere near the list?

 

[forty_three]

All things equal, the only 4 in the league right now who should even be considered are Sid, Ovie, Jagr and Thornton. Those are the only 4 players in the league right now who would be considered sure-as-shit Hall of Famers were they to retire right this minute save Hanks Lundqvist and Zetterberg.

EDIT: And Iggy.

My 6: Sid, Ovi, Thornton, Jagr. All obvious.

Iggy



Ummmm...




There aren't six in the league now.

And also, what stats are used to determine a top 100 NHL'er of all time? goals and assists, Cups, major trophies, All Star appearances? What about PIM's, toughness, other less tangible things? Look at Dale Hunter, he has like the second or third most PIM's of all time, scored over 1000 points in his NHL career, why is he not anywhere near the list?

Ask Pierre Turgeon. That moment overshadowed lots of great accomplishments by Dale.

 

[Comeds]

I think he's the only one with a regular NHL job on the list save Lehtonen.

To Ward's credit, he's been pretty decent this year. Re-signing him wasn't as big a blunder as we all thought last summer.

My post was really a joke mocking an old Hurricanes fan poster who would post a thread posing a 'who is best' question, then answer it stating that a Hurricane was the best.

For what its worth, I agree with you. I even agree with the Hurricane resigning him, though maybe for a bit less.

 

[dash]

My post was really a joke mocking an old Hurricanes fan poster who would post a thread posing a 'who is best' question, then answer it stating that a Hurricane was the best.

I miss scottcanes

 

[BGDave]

All things equal, the only 4 in the league right now who should even be considered are Sid, Ovie, Jagr and Thornton. Those are the only 4 players in the league right now who would be considered sure-as-shit Hall of Famers were they to retire right this minute save Hanks Lundqvist and Zetterberg.

EDIT: And Iggy.

Agreed.

 

[BGDave]

Here's an interesting swerve on the "Best 100" debate.

Should the 100 be broken down by position? Should there be only 50 forwards, 34 Dmen, and 14 goalies?

I dont think so, but if you dont factor in position then the list will be heavily skewed to forwards, and I am not sure that is valid either.

 

[dash]

NHL All-Star jerseys...

Pacific - Black
Atlantic - Yellow
Central - Purple
Metro - White

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Here's an interesting swerve on the "Best 100" debate.

Should the 100 be broken down by position? Should there be only 50 forwards, 34 Dmen, and 14 goalies?

I dont think so, but if you dont factor in position then the list will be heavily skewed to forwards, and I am not sure that is valid either.

I think it'll probably break down close to that anyway. Maybe fewer goalies.

 

[DragonfromTO]

And also, what stats are used to determine a top 100 NHL'er of all time? goals and assists, Cups, major trophies, All Star appearances? What about PIM's, toughness, other less tangible things? Look at Dale Hunter, he has like the second or third most PIM's of all time, scored over 1000 points in his NHL career, why is he not anywhere near the list?

Penalty minutes are a positive thing? Who knew?