Ongoing NHL thread - Part III

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Apparently the mayor of Tempe hasn't even been spoken to regarding a proposal that requires $200 million up front of public funding lol.

"My thinking hasn’t changed: Building a third professional arena in this market doesn’t make sense, especially when it would likely require new public dollars as a part of the deal.”

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...tes-asu-agree-2-facility-deal-tempe/93784410/

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Apparently the mayor of Tempe hasn't even been spoken to regarding a proposal that requires $200 million up front of public funding lol.

"My thinking hasn’t changed: Building a third professional arena in this market doesn’t make sense, especially when it would likely require new public dollars as a part of the deal.”

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...tes-asu-agree-2-facility-deal-tempe/93784410/

Different article I saw implied that it would be about $200M each from the Coyotes and ASU, so perhaps the mayor of Tempe doesn't have any say in it?

/Not that he's wrong about that three arena thing.

 

[forty_three]

HRef has Marty ahead of Fleury by 50 pts in adjusted career totals. Not sure why it's a huge stretch.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com


Being the best of the best of your era doesn't necessarily mean you're in with the best of all time. I don't consider Martin St. Louis to be one of the best to ever lace em up. Feel free to believe otherwise.

I don't think you need to be the "best of an era" necessarily, though. If your story needs to be told and preserved for the future of the game, I think that could warrant additional consideration.

I don't think Marty makes it on either side of that coin.

Theo... he might. I think his story is an important one to tell. Given that he performed so well for so long helps.

Apparently the mayor of Tempe hasn't even been spoken to regarding a proposal that requires $200 million up front of public funding lol.

"My thinking hasn’t changed: Building a third professional arena in this market doesn’t make sense, especially when it would likely require new public dollars as a part of the deal.”

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...tes-asu-agree-2-facility-deal-tempe/93784410/

Brilliant.

Different article I saw implied that it would be about $200M each from the Coyotes and ASU, so perhaps the mayor of Tempe doesn't have any say in it?

/Not that he's wrong about that three arena thing.

And how in God's name do the 'yotes have 200 mill to add?

Oh yeah, that's right. Vegas expansion.

 

[Eugene Baker III]

Anaheim Ducks: Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down 11/14 - CaliSports News

Early but damn...nerve wracking...

 

[Duke of Douchington]

Russell Wilson Verified account ‏@DangeRussWilson
I'm excited to announce I've partnered w/ the Sonics Arena Group to help bring the @NBA & @NHL to the best fan base in the world. Seattle.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Russell Wilson Verified account ‏@DangeRussWilson
I'm excited to announce I've partnered w/ the Sonics Arena Group to help bring the @NBA & @NHL to the best fan base in the world. Seattle.

That is some wild energy Russ has there for the world's best fan base. Seattle.

 

[DragonfromTO]

HRef has Marty ahead of Fleury by 50 pts in adjusted career totals. Not sure why it's a huge stretch.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

So with the real life differential that's a swing of a little over 100 points between them based on the eras, no? That doesn't seem that insignificant to me.

Being the best of the best of your era doesn't necessarily mean you're in with the best of all time. I don't consider Martin St. Louis to be one of the best to ever lace em up. Feel free to believe otherwise.

While I suppose it is certainly possible for this to be true, when I look at the years surrounding Marty's Art Ross and Hart Trophy wins I see a lot of Hall of Fame names, guys that he presumably beat out for those trophies. Makes it tough for me to think that he wasn't at that level too.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

That is some wild energy Russ has there for the world's best fan base. Seattle.

its almost as if a bot posted that tweet ... ie look at the actual tweet and its as if it autofilled the name of the city in the space below lol

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

So with the real life differential that's a swing of a little over 100 points between them based on the eras, no? That doesn't seem that insignificant to me.

Is that generally how those stats are used?

Anyway, I'm sure the difference in points even in that extreme can be made up by the fact that MSL skated almost his entire career with Vincent Lecavalier or Steven Stamkos centering his line while Theo was being centered by Andrew Cassels and Billy's dad.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

its almost as if a bot posted that tweet ... ie look at the actual tweet and its as if it autofilled the name of the city in the space below lol

Lmao

 

[jstewismybastardson]

btw ... Russells "posse" is thrilled with this development

 

[DragonfromTO]

Is that generally how those stats are used?

Anyway, I'm sure the difference in points even in that extreme can be made up by the fact that MSL skated almost his entire career with Vincent Lecavalier or Steven Stamkos centering his line while Theo was being centered by Andrew Cassels and Billy's dad.

I don't think you got what I was saying there. I'm saying that a calculation that causes a 100+ point swing is not a neutral effect and suggests that the two contexts aren't as even as you seem to be implying.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't think you got what I was saying there. I'm saying that a calculation that causes a 100+ point swing is not a neutral effect and suggests that the two contexts aren't as even as you seem to be implying.

I know what you were saying, but you're ignoring that the effect also added pts to Theo and kept them exactly the same distance apart scoring-wise just on the other side of each other.

My argument has never been that one player is better or worse than the other, simply arguing that Marty being a lock for the Hall while Theo will likely wait a long time to get in if he ever does doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[buffhockey]

I


And how in God's name do the 'yotes have 200 mill to add?

Oh yeah, that's right. Vegas expansion.

Yet to be paid...

GMs gather to talk about blindside hits, expansion rules
...

Noticeably absent from the GMs meeting Tuesday was Las Vegas GM George McPhee.

The Vegas expansion team doesn’t yet have "franchise rights" until their transaction to enter the league officially closes, which is expected sometime in the spring. In other words, not until their final payment on that $500 million expansion fee is made.

....

 

[esls79]

The September 1991 issue of Beckett Hockey Monthly had Jagr on the cover and Theo on the back. Jagr is a shoe in for the hall we he hangs them up and due to this association, so is Theoren. That overtime winner against the Oilers and subsequent celebration alone is enough to get him in for me.

 

[forty_three]

Yet to be paid...

GMs gather to talk about blindside hits, expansion rules
...

Noticeably absent from the GMs meeting Tuesday was Las Vegas GM George McPhee.

The Vegas expansion team doesn’t yet have "franchise rights" until their transaction to enter the league officially closes, which is expected sometime in the spring. In other words, not until their final payment on that $500 million expansion fee is made.

....

It will be easy, once all those dedicated fans pony up for those season tickets they agreed to. RIGHT?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I know what you were saying, but you're ignoring that the effect also added pts to Theo and kept them exactly the same distance apart scoring-wise just on the other side of each other.

My argument has never been that one player is better or worse than the other, simply arguing that Marty being a lock for the Hall while Theo will likely wait a long time to get in if he ever does doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I don't have a dog in this fight but Theo didn't always play with scrubs. Nieuwendyk, Gilmour, Makarov, MacInnis, Suter, Roberts aren't exactly chopped liver. That was his supporting cast in his early career. Shieeeet, even Robert Reichel was a good offensive player on that team in those days.

I've noticed you say that Alfie might get in on "personality". I guess you don't put as much weight, compared to Fleury's "bad teammates", into the fact that the best centers he had on his line for a lot of his early years and prime were Todd White and a young Marty Straka.

For what it's worth I would be fine with either MSL or Fleury, or both, ending up in the HHOF.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't have a dog in this fight but Theo didn't always play with scrubs. Nieuwendyk, Gilmour, Makarov, MacInnis, Suter, Roberts aren't exactly chopped liver. That was his supporting cast in his early career. Shieeeet, even Robert Reichel was a good offensive player on that team in those days.

I've noticed you say that Alfie might get in on "personality". I guess you don't put as much weight, compared to Fleury's "bad teammates", into the fact that the best centers he had on his line for a lot of his early years and prime were Todd White and a young Marty Straka.

For what it's worth I would be fine with either MSL or Fleury, or both, ending up in the HHOF.

Oh he definitely did. Just pointing more toward the setting in of the dead puck era when he didn't have much at all in terms of help. PRetty much between the time Nieuwendyk was traded and when he wasn't dealt to Colorado.

That's a bit of a different situation with Alfie. He only played with Straka in his rookie year, right? He then had Yashin for a few very good years in which he missed time through injuries and a contract holdout, then Jacques put him with White instead of Bonk. So yeah you can name a few years where he wasn't not skating with the best but on the flip teams had to decide whether to put their top pairing up against him or the Bonk-Hossa line. I'm sure he benefitted from that, whereas I couldn't even pretend to know what a second line in Calgary looked like from 1996-1999.

Fwiw I think Alfredsson is an HHOF'er but another guy I could stand to see wait for a few years but might get in first ballot which is kinda where I took issue with MSL.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Oh he definitely did. Just pointing more toward the setting in of the dead puck era when he didn't have much at all in terms of help. PRetty much between the time Nieuwendyk was traded and when he wasn't dealt to Colorado.

That's a bit of a different situation with Alfie. He only played with Straka in his rookie year, right? He then had Yashin for a few very good years in which he missed time through injuries and a contract holdout, then Jacques put him with White instead of Bonk. So yeah you can name a few years where he wasn't not skating with the best but on the flip teams had to decide whether to put their top pairing up against him or the Bonk-Hossa line. I'm sure he benefitted from that, whereas I couldn't even pretend to know what a second line in Calgary looked like from 1996-1999.

Fwiw I think Alfredsson is an HHOF'er but another guy I could stand to see wait for a few years but might get in first ballot which is kinda where I took issue with MSL.

I hear ya. There were some slim pickings for Theo in the middle part of his career. And he did really well. I remember how much of a beast he was the year he got traded to the Dive-a-lanche, both before and after the trade. One of my favourites to watch that year.

As for Alfie, even during the Yashin years Yashin mostly played with MacEachern and Dackell and Alfredsson was left to fend for himself. He did get some young Vinny Prospal, maybe some Sergei Zholtok time too, but hardly the likes of Nieuwendyk and Gilmour. At least not until he was paired with Spezza and Heatley.

 

[tducey]

That Seattle situation seems like something, will be interesting to see how it pans out.