Ongoing NHL thread - Part III

[Nasty_Magician]

CUJO was awesome but not sure if he's HOFer. When you look at the cream of the crop from his era (Roy, Hasek, Brodeur) he just isn't on the same level. You'd be dumb not to want him on your team but is he top 5 of his era?

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I suppose that's possible but other than 2 or 3 standout seasons he really wasn't anything spectacular. Other than his last couple of Oiler years he didn't play on teams that allowed an exorbitant number of shots.

Between 1994 and 2004 he ranked 10th in sv% among goalies with 320+ starts, behind Dunham and Osgood and ahead of Turek and Thibault. Granted he played a lot more games during that span than Dunham and Turek I still can't justify to myself that he belongs in the Hall when those guys are his comparables. We're really talking 5 or 6 great years, tops, over a 19 year NHL career.

In his early years as a starter in STL they allowed among the most shots in the league.

Other than that, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying why I think he gets the nod eventually. Primarily because of longevity, he's among the all-time leaders in games played, wins, shots against, and saves and he has a career sv% equal to Belfour (probably his most direct comparable based on years active), and only .04 and .06 off of Roy and Brodeur, respectively.

My honest opinion is that if had even been on one Cup winner like Belfour, there wouldn't even be a debate, he'd be in already.

 

[forty_three]

Weren't we told that an arena anywhere except the core of downtown as going to fail?

What's the excuse going to be when they continue to bleed money?

Do we count the cost of the Arena on top of the total losses there?

Expansion fee 2018 - I trillion dollars.

Trump deported all their fans

Auston Matthews mom *is* Mexican.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

In his early years as a starter in STL they allowed among the most shots in the league.

Other than that, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying why I think he gets the nod eventually. Primarily because of longevity, he's among the all-time leaders in games played, wins, shots against, and saves and he has a career sv% equal to Belfour (probably his most direct comparable based on years active), and only .04 and .06 off of Roy and Brodeur, respectively.

My honest opinion is that if had even been on one Cup winner like Belfour, there wouldn't even be a debate, he'd be in already.

Indeed they were, and by quite a bit. His numbers do come off more impressive there, but I'd still argue that his sv%'s from those seasons where he was at his best, and the fact they rank so unfavourably with his contemporaries, would show that he had some exceptionally (by his standards) good years bookended by years where he was more towards the league mean.

Eddie's trophy case was stacked. The best Joseph did was finish second in Vezina voting once. He was never the best goalie in the league for even a season.

Basically, if we're electing based on a criteria of a few exceptional years he wasn't exceptional enough for me and if we're electing based on a career's worth of work he wasn't among the best long enough for me.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Indeed they were, and by quite a bit. His numbers do come off more impressive there, but I'd still argue that his sv%'s from those seasons where he was at his best, and the fact they rank so unfavourably with his contemporaries, would show that he had some exceptionally (by his standards) good years bookended by years where he was more towards the league mean.

Eddie's trophy case was stacked. The best Joseph did was finish second in Vezina voting once. He was never the best goalie in the league for even a season.

Basically, if we're electing based on a criteria of a few exceptional years he wasn't exceptional enough for me and if we're electing based on a career's worth of work he wasn't among the best long enough for me.

I guess we'll have to wait - potentially a couple decades if Vachon is any indication - to see if you're right.

But see, what you're confusing is the fact that I'm not arguing that he should make it, I'm arguing that he will. Like it or not, voters will eventually see a guy who ranks somewhere* in the top 10 all time for wins and has a stat line very similar to a guy like Belfour who is already in and they'll give him the nod. It may not be this year or next, but I think that it will happen.

* - Luongo is essentially certain to pass him. Lundqvist is probably the only other active with a legit shot at passing him.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I guess we'll have to wait - potentially a couple decades if Vachon is any indication - to see if you're right.

But see, what you're confusing is the fact that I'm not arguing that he should make it, I'm arguing that he will. Like it or not, voters will eventually see a guy who ranks somewhere* in the top 10 all time for wins and has a stat line very similar to a guy like Belfour who is already in and they'll give him the nod. It may not be this year or next, but I think that it will happen.

* - Luongo is essentially certain to pass him. Lundqvist is probably the only other active with a legit shot at passing him.

Oh I know you're not necessarily arguing with me. I was just making an argument against these kinds of inductions in general. Not just goalies, either - I think we're going to see a lot of guys in the next few years (Alfie, MSL etc) maybe get in based on reputations and "intangibles" rather than actually being among the best of the best.

MAF should pass him once he gets another starting job. Only about a hundred wins back. Assuming he doesn't wind up in Vegas he should be able to reach him in 3 years or so.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Out of curiosity I just did a Google Street View around the arena site in Tempe.

The site is on the NW corner; the other three corners are occupied by:

-one of those sprawling outdoor shopping malls with acres of surface-level parking

-commercial warehousing

-some sort of power generating facility whose transmission lines cross onto the arena site and will probably cost the team a lot to re-locate

There is little else in terms of civilisation around this place for miles and there is a slim-to-none chance that this development serves as the "centre of a revitalisation" for the area the way so many arena projects in rust belt cities promise to. There's nothing to regenerate here.

Best-case scenario is the team looking for taxpayer help, that help being re-fucking-jected and the owner moving the team to a profitable market. This development makes no sense, the Phoenix area doesn't need 3 huge arenas competing with each other for tours and shows and the university already has an (admittedly old) arena for its own events.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Oh I know you're not necessarily arguing with me. I was just making an argument against these kinds of inductions in general. Not just goalies, either - I think we're going to see a lot of guys in the next few years (Alfie, MSL etc) maybe get in based on reputations and "intangibles" rather than actually being among the best of the best.

MAF should pass him once he gets another starting job. Only about a hundred wins back. Assuming he doesn't wind up in Vegas he should be able to reach him in 3 years or so.

I don't actually see MSL as that difficult a case. He won the Hart, Pearson, and Ross in '03-'04 while also winning the Cup. I don't see how it's really possible to leave out a guy who swept all of those and played at a point per game pace right through his mid-30s.

Regarding MAF, I honestly don't see him getting another full time starting gig for more than a season or two. Hard to say for sure. I've never felt highly of him, but I think what prime he did have is gone. I wouldn't be even remotely surprised to see him end up in Vegas because I think he'll be the best of a mediocre crop of unprotected goalies when expansion comes around.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Out of curiosity I just did a Google Street View around the arena site in Tempe.

The site is on the NW corner; the other three corners are occupied by:

-one of those sprawling outdoor shopping malls with acres of surface-level parking

-commercial warehousing

-some sort of power generating facility whose transmission lines cross onto the arena site and will probably cost the team a lot to re-locate

There is little else in terms of civilisation around this place for miles and there is a slim-to-none chance that this development serves as the "centre of a revitalisation" for the area the way so many arena projects in rust belt cities promise to. There's nothing to regenerate here.

Best-case scenario is the team looking for taxpayer help, that help being re-fucking-jected and the owner moving the team to a profitable market. This development makes no sense, the Phoenix area doesn't need 3 huge arenas competing with each other for tours and shows and the university already has an (admittedly old) arena for its own events.

The proximity to ASU should help and the team claims 70% of their fan base lives on that side of town. Putting it essentially between Tempe and Scottsdale is a heck of a lot better than the current Glendale location, but I sincerely doubt it will be enough.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't actually see MSL as that difficult a case. He won the Hart, Pearson, and Ross in '03-'04 while also winning the Cup. I don't see how it's really possible to leave out a guy who swept all of those and played at a point per game pace right through his mid-30s.

Regarding MAF, I honestly don't see him getting another full time starting gig for more than a season or two. Hard to say for sure. I've never felt highly of him, but I think what prime he did have is gone. I wouldn't be even remotely surprised to see him end up in Vegas because I think he'll be the best of a mediocre crop of unprotected goalies when expansion comes around.

I think I've said it here before but I don't know how one can induct MSL without inducting Theo Fleury first and I don't really think Theo is an HOF'er.

It's nice that MSL swept those awards but the NHL was Sleepy Hollow at that point - MSL won the Art Ross with the lowest non-lockout point total in over 35 years. It was the third time between 2000 and 2004 that it was awarded to someone with fewer than 100 pts (it hadn't happened since 1968 and has only happened once since). It helps his case but it wouldn't be a determining factor for me.

From what I recall MAF can't be left unprotected unless he agrees to waive for the draft. Possible but probably unlikely.

 

[Duke of Douchington]

Arizona sports fans in general suck. They are probably the biggest fair weather group out there, maybe next to like...Miami.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I think I've said it here before but I don't know how one can induct MSL without inducting Theo Fleury first and I don't really think Theo is an HOF'er.

It's nice that MSL swept those awards but the NHL was Sleepy Hollow at that point - MSL won the Art Ross with the lowest non-lockout point total in over 35 years. It was the third time between 2000 and 2004 that it was awarded to someone with fewer than 100 pts (it hadn't happened since 1968 and has only happened once since). It helps his case but it wouldn't be a determining factor for me.

From what I recall MAF can't be left unprotected unless he agrees to waive for the draft. Possible but probably unlikely.

I think MSL is well ahead of Theo, but that's just me. I'd wager some vCash that he goes in first year eligible. We've already seen that the 2017 class is very underwhelming after Selanne. While 2018 presents one of the biggest first year locks in a decade in Brodeur, look at the rest of the group. Briere, Nabokov, Bryz, and a few others.

Is it fair that he's likely to benefit from a weak class year? No, but I'm betting it happens.

Beyond that, I think they use this year and next to clear a few more of the guys who have been waiting for years and have always just barely missed the cut.

I also fully expect the Penguins to ask MAF to waive his NMC/NTC so they can expose him. Whether he'll agree is harder to predict obviously.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I think MSL is well ahead of Theo, but that's just me. I'd wager some vCash that he goes in first year eligible.

You're not the only one but I don't understand it at all. Both spent parts of their careers in individual high-scoring and low-scoring eras of the league, both had 6 seasons of point-per-game or more production, Fleury scored 55 more points than MSL in 50 fewer career games...

If the advantage to MSL is that he was more productive later in his career the reverse is true in Fleury's favour - Fleury had 854 pts at the age of 30 while MSL had 320. If Fleury didn't have a shit ton of personal demons he would've at the very least finished with a couple hundred more points than Marty and if that's what's going to keep Fleury out of the Hall while Marty gets first-ballot recognition, well, that's some kind of bullshit.

 

[Duke of Douchington]

I don't think either are HOFers, but I'd take Theo 10 times out of 10 over MSL. I liked the edge that Theo played with over Marty St. Ladybing. I do think they will look at MSL since he's more "decorated" with the awards and he will probably get in, but I still would take Theo over him personally.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

You're not the only one but I don't understand it at all. Both spent parts of their careers in individual high-scoring and low-scoring eras of the league, both had 6 seasons of point-per-game or more production, Fleury scored 55 more points than MSL in 50 fewer career games...

If the advantage to MSL is that he was more productive later in his career the reverse is true in Fleury's favour - Fleury had 854 pts at the age of 30 while MSL had 320. If Fleury didn't have a shit ton of personal demons he would've at the very least finished with a couple hundred more points than Marty and if that's what's going to keep Fleury out of the Hall while Marty gets first-ballot recognition, well, that's some kind of bullshit.

MSL started in the middle of the dead puck era and didn't hit anything resembling high-scoring until post-lockout, while Fleury started his career in the high-flying days, so it's hard to compare their careers at specific points.

Sure MSL's 94 point total was pathetic for an Art Ross winner, but it was still an Art Ross winner. Fleury meanwhile managed to break 100 points only twice during a high-flying era and only one of those was even enough to put him in the top 10 in league scoring.

They're hard players to compare though really. Not only the different eras, but their roles and styles were different too. Fleury was expected to be a pest and play with a hard edge to his game. MSL meanwhile won the Lady Byng a bunch of times and generally took very few penalties.

I think where MSL gets the edge is because you can clearly say he was the best or very near the best in the league at one point in his career, while Fleury doesn't even make it into the top 10 from his era (I'm not holding him to the best standard since he spent most of his career playing against guys like Gretzky and Lemieux).

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

MSL started in the middle of the dead puck era and didn't hit anything resembling high-scoring until post-lockout, while Fleury started his career in the high-flying days, so it's hard to compare their careers at specific points.

Sure MSL's 94 point total was pathetic for an Art Ross winner, but it was still an Art Ross winner. Fleury meanwhile managed to break 100 points only twice during a high-flying era and only one of those was even enough to put him in the top 10 in league scoring.

They're hard players to compare though really. Not only the different eras, but their roles and styles were different too. Fleury was expected to be a pest and play with a hard edge to his game. MSL meanwhile won the Lady Byng a bunch of times and generally took very few penalties.

I think where MSL gets the edge is because you can clearly say he was the best or very near the best in the league at one point in his career, while Fleury doesn't even make it into the top 10 from his era (I'm not holding him to the best standard since he spent most of his career playing against guys like Gretzky and Lemieux).

Like I said, Fleury's decline in production coincided with dead puck and MSL's slower start can be attributed to it as well. I don't think either gets or loses points on that.

One thing to keep in mind with regards to point totals is teammate quality - Theo was skating with bums on the Flames in the late 90s (including briefly with Marty himself lol) while Marty went from Vinny to Stamkos. Theo's numbers jumped when he was dealt to the Avs and if he hadn't been so stupid to sign with the early-aughts Rangers (and avoided the personal stuff) he likely could've played at a high-clip into his 30s.

I said it before but it seems to me like a lot of the reasoning behind Theo's exclusion can be pinned to his personal issues and I'd feel really weird if I were a Hall voter using that as an excuse to keep him out when a player of similar record, different in playing style but comparable almost every other way, is going to get first ballot.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't think either are HOFers, but I'd take Theo 10 times out of 10 over MSL. I liked the edge that Theo played with over Marty St. Ladybing. I do think they will look at MSL since he's more "decorated" with the awards and he will probably get in, but I still would take Theo over him personally.

The Hall are historically suckers for individual accolades and personality (why I think Alfie might even be a first ballot guy when I'm on the fence of his belonging as well). Sabres isn't stretching in his argument at all.

 

[DragonfromTO]

You're not the only one but I don't understand it at all. Both spent parts of their careers in individual high-scoring and low-scoring eras of the league, both had 6 seasons of point-per-game or more production, Fleury scored 55 more points than MSL in 50 fewer career games...

If the advantage to MSL is that he was more productive later in his career the reverse is true in Fleury's favour - Fleury had 854 pts at the age of 30 while MSL had 320. If Fleury didn't have a shit ton of personal demons he would've at the very least finished with a couple hundred more points than Marty and if that's what's going to keep Fleury out of the Hall while Marty gets first-ballot recognition, well, that's some kind of bullshit.

I think the first statement is a huge stretch (when was this high flying era that MSL was active for?) and also helps explain the second detail. Part of the reason Theo scored a lot more early was because of his outside issues but part of it was also the context.

I'm fine with both being in the HoF but if I have to make a choice I think I'm siding with Marty. I find it hard to believe that you stated that a guy who made 1st or 2nd all star teams five times, won two scoring titles and a Hart Trophy was never really "best of the best". I'm assuming it was just bad phrasing

 

[Vyle203]

Vachon's HOF speech got me, not gonna lie.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I think the first statement is a huge stretch (when was this high flying era that MSL was active for?)

HRef has Marty ahead of Fleury by 50 pts in adjusted career totals. Not sure why it's a huge stretch.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

I'm fine with both being in the HoF but if I have to make a choice I think I'm siding with Marty. I find it hard to believe that you stated that a guy who made 1st or 2nd all star teams five times, won two scoring titles and a Hart Trophy was never really "best of the best". I'm assuming it was just bad phrasing

Being the best of the best of your era doesn't necessarily mean you're in with the best of all time. I don't consider Martin St. Louis to be one of the best to ever lace em up. Feel free to believe otherwise.