Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

[jstewismybastardson]

Ken Holland is still wondering WTF he was thinking with Johan Franzen.

book mark it

 

[dash]

Apologies if posted already, but Friedman on the weekend reported that some agents feel that the salary cap may actually go down for next season.

 

[DragonfromTO]

The same things they're saying about Strome they said about Tavares. I'm not too concerned.

Are the Marlies even playing Nylander at C? I know he started at first on the left...

Tavares was a better skater than Strome is though (even before he improved his skating as a pro). Plus he has elite level awareness and risk management (basically what they're talking about when they say a guy "controls the pace" or "slows the game down"), which I'm not sure Strome has and I don't think is really the type of thing that can be coached/taught.

And Tavares mostly did what he did in junior with the opposition 99% focused on stopping him.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Tavares was a better skater than Strome is though (even before he improved his skating as a pro). Plus he has elite level awareness and risk management (basically what they're talking about when they say a guy "controls the pace" or "slows the game down"), which I'm not sure Strome has and I don't think is really the type of thing that can be coached/taught.

And Tavares mostly did what he did in junior with the opposition 99% focused on stopping him.

You mean they weren't worried about Nazem Kadri?

 

[DragonfromTO]

You mean they weren't worried about Nazem Kadri?

They were only teammates for 24 games though, or less than 10% of Tavares' junior career. And maybe I'm remembering wrong but didn't they play on the same line (facing the same tough opposition) anyway?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

They were only teammates for 24 games though, or less than 10% of Tavares' junior career. And maybe I'm remembering wrong but didn't they play on the same line (facing the same tough opposition) anyway?

I don't know. I just remember the two were on the same team, and that scouts said they would like to see more from Tavares' skating. Most if not all of my junior hockey knowledge comes from watching the WJHC.

Anyway, penalizing a guy for playing on the same team as a possible great isn't something I'm in the business of doing. He'll have plenty of time to develop and work out the kinks on the Leafs. Junior defences aren't exactly a science, either; defensive gameplans may be focused on McDavid but all that really means is he'll score 4 points on you instead of 5.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I don't know. I just remember the two were on the same team, and that scouts said they would like to see more from Tavares' skating. Most if not all of my junior hockey knowledge comes from watching the WJHC.

Anyway, penalizing a guy for playing on the same team as a possible great isn't something I'm in the business of doing. He'll have plenty of time to develop and work out the kinks on the Leafs. Junior defences aren't exactly a science, either; defensive gameplans may be focused on McDavid but all that really means is he'll score 4 points on you instead of 5.

Tavares was traded more than halfway through his final season and Kadri moved to the wing to play with him.

If defensive game plans and top defensive units geared towards stopping McDavid's line are still that ineffective then what does that maybe tell us about the effectiveness of what the other Erie lines are facing?

I'm not "penalizing" the guy for playing on the same team as McDavid, I'm simply trying to put his performance in proper context. I can't imagine you're trying to argue that the quality of a player's opposition doesn't matter when evaluating his performance, are you?

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

It's very hard to gauge just how good some players are in junior due to the ages of the players. We're talking about guys who are 16 to 20 years old. What kind of numbers did Dylan put up against the other top teams in the OHL?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Tavares was traded more than halfway through his final season and Kadri moved to the wing to play with him.

If defensive game plans and top defensive units geared towards stopping McDavid's line are still that ineffective then what does that maybe tell us about the effectiveness of what the other Erie lines are facing?

I'm not "penalizing" the guy for playing on the same team as McDavid, I'm simply trying to put his performance in proper context. I can't imagine you're trying to argue that the quality of a player's opposition doesn't matter when evaluating his performance, are you?

When that opposition is OHL defences, yes. By that same logic, I can say Marner benefitted from defences having to focus on Domi and Dvorak, no?

 

[BGDave]

It's very hard to gauge just how good some players are in junior due to the ages of the players. We're talking about guys who are 16 to 20 years old. What kind of numbers did Dylan put up against the other top teams in the OHL?

FWIW

Against Oshawa:

Dec 7 0/0 -2 in a 4-1 Loss
Dec 13 0/0 -1 in a 5-1 Loss

both games without McDavid in lineup

Against SSM:

Oct 24 2/0 +1 in a 6-4 win
Feb 6 0/0 -1 in a 6-1 loss

 

[DragonfromTO]

When that opposition is OHL defences, yes. By that same logic, I can say Marner benefitted from defences having to focus on Domi and Dvorak, no?

No, it's not the same logic. They were on the same line, so they generally faced the same opposition. That's the point being made here, not that teams had 3 guys shadowing McDavid and leaving everyone else on the ice open.

When a team played against London the top units generally played against the Marner line. When a team played against Erie the top units played against the McDavid line, not the Strome line. You can say that Marner benefited from having good linemates I suppose, but he outscored both of them. .

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

FWIW

Against Oshawa:

Dec 7 0/0 -2 in a 4-1 Loss
Dec 13 0/0 -1 in a 5-1 Loss

both games without McDavid in lineup

Against SSM:

Oct 24 2/0 +1 in a 6-4 win
Feb 6 0/0 -1 in a 6-1 loss

One thing to keep in mind is hopefully guys like Strome are going to be playing with good players. For instance there's a chance Dal Colle could be playing with Tavares & Okposo next season.

Maybe the Leafs will win the lottery & Leaf fans won't have to worry about who the 3rd best forward in the draft is. As long as the Sabres lose the lottery I'll be happy.

 

[forty_three]

Best Cup commercial ever.

 

[DragonfromTO]

When that opposition is OHL defences, yes. By that same logic, I can say Marner benefitted from defences having to focus on Domi and Dvorak, no?

I'm not sure I understand this. In junior I'd expect that the gap between the top defensive pair and the other 4 D is even larger, not smaller.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

No, it's not the same logic. They were on the same line, so they generally faced the same opposition. That's the point being made here, not that teams had 3 guys shadowing McDavid and leaving everyone else on the ice open.

When a team played against London the top units generally played against the Marner line. When a team played against Erie the top units played against the McDavid line, not the Strome line. You can say that Marner benefited from having good linemates I suppose, but he outscored both of them. .

Is Dylan Strome's Success All Because of Connor McDavid?

I'm good with Strome, and you'd be crazy to pass up a 6'3 centre who scores 1.9 PPG, including 1.67 per game while McDavid was injured.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I'm not sure I understand this. In junior I'd expect that the gap between the top defensive pair and the other 4 D is even larger, not smaller.

Or they're all, for the most part, not that good

The OHL has the fewest defencemen of the 3 CHL leagues in the top 50 of central scouting's final rankings. Not exactly a defensive hotbed. Also, Strome still played a third of the season as the #1 offensive option and still held his own.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Is Dylan Strome's Success All Because of Connor McDavid?

I'm good with Strome, and you'd be crazy to pass up a 6'3 centre who scores 1.9 PPG, including 1.67 per game while McDavid was injured.

Stromes a cherry picker lol

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Stromes a cherry picker lol

Or McDavid sucks and Strome needs to clean up after him

 

[BGDave]

Or McDavid sucks and Strome needs to clean up after him

Oh no, here come the "sloppy seconds" comments.....

 

[DragonfromTO]

Is Dylan Strome's Success All Because of Connor McDavid?

I'm good with Strome, and you'd be crazy to pass up a 6'3 centre who scores 1.9 PPG, including 1.67 per game while McDavid was injured.

It's only 21 games. I already acknowledged that he didn't fall off much when McDavid missed time, but it was only 21 games.

And I see this line right in the middle of that piece

"Many would now say that Strome didn’t have to face the opposing team’s top D pairing. That may be true."

Here'the real problem I have with it though... there are so many unsupported conclusions! And those conclusions are the basis for the argument. There are plenty of points that I've made regarding Strome that I don't have hard evidence for (detailed junior data is obviously a lot tougher to get unless you work for a team), but I'm not stating them as if they're facts.

"Thanks to injuries, and a little bit of inconsistent play, his line mates were shuffled a lot. But, no matter who Coach Knobloch threw out there, Strome’s presence made them better. "

OK, now show me how! Show me something to support that.

"Here’s the other thing. Dylan Strome has helped Connor McDavid become a better player as well. It works both ways. McDavid told us earlier in the season just that.

'He’s an unbelievable player,' McDavid said of Strome. 'Every time he’s on the ice, it feels like something is going to happen.' "

What else would we expect McDavid to say? From hearing him talk I get the impression that if asked he'd talk up the equipment guy's contributions to his season. And for that matter, where in that quote did he say or imply that Strome "helped (him) become a better player" anyway?

There's very little evidence (either way) of anything in that piece. It's more of an opinion piece than an analysis piece. Which is fine, but not something that's going to sway me.