NWO do-over

[Toadman005]

The Attitude Era was a WWF thing. C'mon man, this isn't difficult.

According to who? You? The WWE who want to lie/pretend it was only theirs? The n.W.o had more to do with birthing the attitude era than anything as they made shit feel real.

 

[carson]

According to who? You? The WWE who want to lie/pretend it was only theirs? The n.W.o had more to do with birthing the attitude era than anything as they made shit feel real.

"Attitude Era is a term used by World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE, then known as World Wrestling Federation or WWF), to describe the company's programming during the Monday Night Wars"

Legit question: Are you old enough to know the difference?

 

[Toadman005]

Sigh. I witnessed it. The "winners" are trying to frame history in a favorable fashion.

Don't be a mark.

 

[carson]

Sigh. I witnessed it. The "winners" are trying to frame history in a favorable fashion.

Don't be a mark.

They don't have to frame it. "The Attitude Era" is a WWF term and always has been. You're using it as an umbrella term to describe the WCW vs WWF war on Monday Night, and that's not accurate.

I give the NWO angle all the credit for forcing McMahon's hand, but the NWO was also what led to the WCW's demise. Grew too big, too fast, and eventually became the recycled storyline WCW employed to keep their heads above water. DX had the meteoric rise and was disbanded in 1998. WWF didn't need to keep recycling DX to win the ratings.

 

[wazzu31]

Realistically the attitude era had started before the NWO just the WWF/E refused to acknowledge it. HBK and Stone Cold (even though he was a heel) were doing stuff that got booed since pro wrestling began. NWO wasn’t really “attitude”. They were realistic but in no way outside of maybe spray painting people did the NWO do any of the attitude era type stuff the WWF/E did.

 

[Toadman005]

They don't have to frame it. "The Attitude Era" is a WWF term and always has been. You're using it as an umbrella term to describe the WCW vs WWF war on Monday Night, and that's not accurate.

I give the NWO angle all the credit for forcing McMahon's hand, but the NWO was also what led to the WCW's demise. Grew too big, too fast, and eventually became the recycled storyline WCW employed to keep their heads above water. DX had the meteoric rise and was disbanded in 1998. WWF didn't need to keep recycling DX to win the ratings.

That's not entirely true. Yes in 1998, the n.W.o angle was overplayed to an extent; overly large, bloated, and lazy. The civil war never happened, Hogan was Hogan, he squashed the year long Sting angle, Hall got drunk, etc. But as Bischoff states, Time Warner was forcing WCW to the the show up, while WWF was gassing the R-rated stuff. If WCW could have had Stacy Keibler getting naked like Sable did, or Kimberly Page stripping like Torrie, they'd have still been fine.

 

[carson]

That's not entirely true. Yes in 1998, the n.W.o angle was overplayed to an extent; overly large, bloated, and lazy. The civil war never happened, Hogan was Hogan, he squashed the year long Sting angle, Hall got drunk, etc. But as Bischoff states, Time Warner was forcing WCW to the the show up, while WWF was gassing the R-rated stuff. If WCW could have had Stacy Keibler getting naked like Sable did, or Kimberly Page stripping like Torrie, they'd have still been fine.

I listen to Bischoff's Pod and I agree the Time Warner leadership had a lot to do with it, but I'd place equal blame on the booking. The hefty contracts and creative control given to so many big names finally caught up with them. WCW failed to adapt.

 

[Toadman005]

I listen to Bischoff's Pod and I agree the Time Warner leadership had a lot to do with it, but I'd place equal blame on the booking. The hefty contracts and creative control given to so many big names finally caught up with them. WCW failed to adapt.

Hogan was the biggest problem there imo. He ruined WCW with his fat, racist ego.

 

[carson]

Hogan was the biggest problem there imo. He ruined WCW with his fat, racist ego.

Hogan & Nash. Its a problem when Hogan held the belt for a majority of the time.

 

[Toadman005]

Hogan & Nash. Its a problem when Hogan held the belt for a majority of the time.

Hogan did far more harm than just holding the belt. He ruined Starcade vs Sting. When the n.W.o split he stole Hall. He refused to fight the Pac. He demanded the finger poke of doom. He refused to lose to Booker. Hogan is trash.

 

[wazzu31]

I listen to Bischoff's Pod and I agree the Time Warner leadership had a lot to do with it, but I'd place equal blame on the booking. The hefty contracts and creative control given to so many big names finally caught up with them. WCW failed to adapt.

This is the one thing that bugs me with Bischoff. He makes really great points about Time Warner and not letting WCW go attitude era but rarely opens up about he is the primary reason WCW was forced to sell. He was in charge of the contracts and he got too buddy buddy with Hogan and crew. For everything great he did, he is the sole responsible person for the downfall, which is the guaranteed contracts along with the creative control. WCW had a chance at a reset with Russo (still doubt it would have worked because of Time Warner and he had way too many crazy ass ideas Vince shot down) but he was handicapped with the creative control he was handed.

 

[Toadman005]

This is the one thing that bugs me with Bischoff. He makes really great points about Time Warner and not letting WCW go attitude era but rarely opens up about he is the primary reason WCW was forced to sell. He was in charge of the contracts and he got too buddy buddy with Hogan and crew. For everything great he did, he is the sole responsible person for the downfall, which is the guaranteed contracts along with the creative control. WCW had a chance at a reset with Russo (still doubt it would have worked because of Time Warner and he had way too many crazy ass ideas Vince shot down) but he was handicapped with the creative control he was handed.

Yeah, he is blind to his own failures. Konan says it best...he hitched his wagon up to Hogan, when he should have hitched it up to Hall & Nash.

 

[carson]

This is the one thing that bugs me with Bischoff. He makes really great points about Time Warner and not letting WCW go attitude era but rarely opens up about he is the primary reason WCW was forced to sell. He was in charge of the contracts and he got too buddy buddy with Hogan and crew. For everything great he did, he is the sole responsible person for the downfall, which is the guaranteed contracts along with the creative control. WCW had a chance at a reset with Russo (still doubt it would have worked because of Time Warner and he had way too many crazy ass ideas Vince shot down) but he was handicapped with the creative control he was handed.

And they freaking did it again with TNA (Impact)! Completely killed all the momentum they had while on Spike, by turning it into WCW 2.0.

 

[Toadman005]

And they freaking did it again with TNA (Impact)! Completely killed all the momentum they had while on Spike, by turning it into WCW 2.0.

Hogan.

 

[carson]

Hogan.

Bischoff was in on it too. More behind the scenes, but a part of it, none-the-less.

 

[Toadman005]

Bischoff was in on it too. More behind the scenes, but a part of it, none-the-less.

Right. But he was Hogan's bootlicking toadie.

 

[The Q]

This is the one thing that bugs me with Bischoff. He makes really great points about Time Warner and not letting WCW go attitude era but rarely opens up about he is the primary reason WCW was forced to sell. He was in charge of the contracts and he got too buddy buddy with Hogan and crew. For everything great he did, he is the sole responsible person for the downfall, which is the guaranteed contracts along with the creative control. WCW had a chance at a reset with Russo (still doubt it would have worked because of Time Warner and he had way too many crazy ass ideas Vince shot down) but he was handicapped with the creative control he was handed.

Sorry. Russo was a mess and blew up the best chance they had at bash at the beach 2000.

Guaranteed contracts were already a thing before bischoff got to wcw.

Yes too many people having issues with their control was a problem. But not being able to go toe to to wih the attitude era wwe after the wwe luckily and accidentally stumbled into Austin and mr McMahon is what killed them.

It was pure luck we’re not watching wcw now.

 

[wazzu31]

Sorry. Russo was a mess and blew up the best chance they had at bash at the beach 2000.

Guaranteed contracts were already a thing before bischoff got to wcw.

Yes too many people having issues with their control was a problem. But not being able to go toe to to wih the attitude era wwe after the wwe luckily and accidentally stumbled into Austin and mr McMahon is what killed them.

It was pure luck we’re not watching wcw now.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I personally think Bischoff was the one who sank WCW. Were there circumstances sure, but I would still put the blame 75% on him. Russo definitely sucked but he was dealt a really really crappy hand and should never have been hired.

Had Bischoff not tried being one of the boys, IMO, WCW would still be around, probably to a different company after the merger but would still be around.

 

[The Q]

I guess we can agree to disagree. I personally think Bischoff was the one who sank WCW. Were there circumstances sure, but I would still put the blame 75% on him. Russo definitely sucked but he was dealt a really really crappy hand and should never have been hired.

Had Bischoff not tried being one of the boys, IMO, WCW would still be around, probably to a different company after the merger but would still be around.

Do you mean as an on screen talent? Or part of a wcw version of the Klique?

 

[wazzu31]

Do you mean as an on screen talent? Or part of a wcw version of the Klique?

His version of going the Kliq route with Hogan, Nash and Hall. Vince and the WWE got away with it because Vince had balls and had final say. Bischoff did what those 3 said, which at first was great for business because they were hot. But he didn’t allow for anything under them to get hot except Goldberg and really he was a my bad for mishandling things so let’s give it to a guy who can’t have a match more than a minute. There are a ton of reasons why WCW went out of business but using a pie chart I’d give him at a minimum 75% of the blame. All the standards and practices, Russo, the merger and all of those excuses are after WCW had their foot on the throat of the WWE and he chose to hitch his wagon to the wrong aspect of running a wrestling company. Which is where he and Vince differ. Vince has tried pushing non main event guys a lot who fans have rejected but at least he pushed guys. Goldberg (a mistake IMO with who was in the title picture) and his neighbor/slash friends with Hall and Nash in DDP.

But that is just my opinion. The merger was going to force a sale of the company but if it were still winning or at least within reaching distance of the WWE some other mogul who hadn’t burned the bridges like Bischoff had would bought the company and put them on national television over the UFC which got national television at the same time. It goes back to Hall and Nash’s quote of WWE was a wrestling company who produced a tv show, WCW was always a tv company who produce a wrestling show. AEW seems like a wrestling company who will put on a tv show.