None Shall Pass...

[HaroldSeattle]

Said every single person that skipped on drafting Hopkins last year.

Hopkins is the exception. Just look at say Dez stats with Romo vs with another QB, or Antonio Browns #s when Ben is out. The examples are too numerous to post, now give me one other WR that did what Hopkins did over a season.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Said every single person that skipped on drafting Hopkins last year.
Some WRs make the QB, even though it is the other way around most times.

Doesn't make it a rule, or make one way riskier than another, imo.

Decker is a more interesting case, I do agree.. But I don't think his numbers would be hurt too much either... It helps to be the number 2!!!

 

[TREFF]

Hopkins is the exception. Just look at say Dez stats with Romo vs with another QB, or Antonio Browns #s when Ben is out. The examples are too numerous to post, now give me one other WR that did what Hopkins did over a season.

Josh Gordon

But seriously, I'm in total agreement with you Harold. The WR's that can be top producers with crap QB's are the rare exceptions. And Fitzpatrick is easily a step above crap. If for no other reason than his intelligence level. Smart decisions with the play calling, audibles, moving people into the right situations, knowing which route is going to open pre snap based on the defensive setup, and not making stupid decisions. They all equate into staying on the field longer, which leads to a better stat line. His physical talent may not be starting NFL caliber, but it's close enough, that the rest of his makeup leaves a grand Canyon between what to expect out of Marshall/Decker with him versus without him and with Geno, whose talent is severely lacking, and he's not a cerebral QB.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I'm agreeing with @MilkSpiller22 regarding Jets/Marshall.

Marshall makes the QB relevant, not the other way around.
Decker on the other hand, will be more dependent on Geno actually progressing through his reads.

Marshall at 32, getting 10+ targets per game? Sign me up.

Marshall was the #3 scoring WR last year, if you really believe he's going to repeat that, he should be a first round pick for you.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Hopkins is the exception. Just look at say Dez stats with Romo vs with another QB, or Antonio Browns #s when Ben is out. The examples are too numerous to post, now give me one other WR that did what Hopkins did over a season.

I did make a point at Marshall's height... Bad QBs are generally bad due to inaccuracy... inaccuracy is helped when your targets are huge... Both Dez Bryant and Antonio brown are not big men... But they do player bigger than their size...

And as for Dez Bryant, last year he was hurt too... and previous years when Romo was gone, we have a small sample size...

Also, And I have no proof to this, but I think it is totally different starting a season with a certain bad QB and having a certain bad QB take over a good one...

 

[TREFF]

I did make a point at Marshall's height... Bad QBs are generally bad due to inaccuracy... inaccuracy is helped when your targets are huge... Both Dez Bryant and Antonio brown are not big men... But they do player bigger than their size...

And as for Dez Bryant, last year he was hurt too... and previous years when Romo was gone, we have a small sample size...

Also, And I have no proof to this, but I think it is totally different starting a season with a certain bad QB and having a certain bad QB take over a good one...

Dez is 6'2", 220..while no giant, that's a big WR

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Dez is 6'2", 220..while no giant, that's a big WR

Yea, went to edit my post... then forgot to change that part...

 

[ehb5]

I dont really think Fitz is better than Geno. At worst I think its close enough not to matter.

 

[SmokingMonkey]

Marshall was the #3 scoring WR last year, if you really believe he's going to repeat that, he should be a first round pick for you.

Never said he'd repeat last year's stats, just saying Marshall will produce for fantasy purposes, regardless who his QB is.
Plummer/Cutler, Pennington/Henne, Cutler/McCown, Fitzpatrick(possibly now Geno as well)......zero elite talents there, only thing elite is the guy catching the ball.
Cutler has an arm but is void of in-game intelligence, and he's the best of the bunch.

And you draft purely off of your own rankings, and don't take ADP into consideration at all?
we both know that's not true.

 

[TREFF]

Never said he'd repeat last year's stats, just saying Marshall will produce for fantasy purposes, regardless who his QB is.
Plummer/Cutler, Pennington/Henne, Cutler/McCown, Fitzpatrick(possibly now Geno as well)......zero elite talents there, only thing elite is the guy catching the ball.
Cutler has an arm but is void of in-game intelligence, and he's the best of the bunch.

And you draft purely off of your own rankings, and don't take ADP into consideration at all?
we both know that's not true.

Meh..I dunno Monkey, I'm not sure that's quite the same thing. All the guys you mentioned are or were at one time, at least adequate NFL starting caliber guys, except maybe McCown, whereas Geno is decidedly below average. I truly believe there's a difference. An elite WR can still be productive with an adequate QB, but a crap QB? maybe week to week, any given Sunday they'll be fine, but over the course of a season, that elite WR will fall from elite and into the category of just pretty good

 

[icefreeze57]

@HaroldSeattle I wouldn't be super surpised if Marshall missed the top 12 honestly. Fitz helps him though for sure. I do expect Nelson to come back strong and finish in the top 12, maybe not the top 6.

But how many of those 12 RBs are you confident will be in the top 12? Cause after the first few guys I really can't trust any of them and they easily can be out of the top 12 for guys like McCoy, Murry (both of them), rookies not named Zeke that pop for a good season (like one or two always does).

 

[HaroldSeattle]

@HaroldSeattle I wouldn't be super surpised if Marshall missed the top 12 honestly. Fitz helps him though for sure. I do expect Nelson to come back strong and finish in the top 12, maybe not the top 6.

But how many of those 12 RBs are you confident will be in the top 12? Cause after the first few guys I really can't trust any of them and they easily can be out of the top 12 for guys like McCoy, Murry (both of them), rookies not named Zeke that pop for a good season (like one or two always does).

Be fun to revisit this thread after the season. I'm sure some of those RBs on the list will fall out of the top 12 and the same for the WRs.

 

[icefreeze57]

Oh I agree for sure! But I think this goes back to the whole value vs value thing and why I think a run of WRs will occur at the begining of the draft (not the first 1-4ish picks but starting after that maybe)

Edit: Not that I don't think WRs will be in the top picks, just that RBs will be too (i.e. Gurley, AP, Bell)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Meh..I dunno Monkey, I'm not sure that's quite the same thing. All the guys you mentioned are or were at one time, at least adequate NFL starting caliber guys, except maybe McCown, whereas Geno is decidedly below average. I truly believe there's a difference. An elite WR can still be productive with an adequate QB, but a crap QB? maybe week to week, any given Sunday they'll be fine, but over the course of a season, that elite WR will fall from elite and into the category of just pretty good

Geno is decidedly below average?? sure, maybe, but he never had receivers like he does now... In his 2 seasons of being the everyday starter, he had decker for one season as his best WR... season before that it was Kerley... Very hard to evolve(not saying he could) when your receivers are not great...

So do we really know how BAD Geno is yet?? i would say no...

PLUS, like i mentioned earlier, bad QBs are generally bad due to inaccuracy... nothing better than a big receiver for that... Why do you think there is the old saying that rookie QBs love their TEs??

Also, really all bad QB means is that there will be inconsistency game to game, but the end of season numbers should be better than 200 YPG and 1 TD per game...

Again, i have a hard time believing if Geno is THAT bad the Jets won't be playing from behind, even if they have a great defense(which i do think is a little over-rated)... and if they are playing from behind a lot that will only be more targets for Marshall...

I think it is one thing if the Jets went from a stud QB to a crappy one, then i would agree that the NEW QB would be a significant disadvantage... But if they don't resign Fitz and go with Geno, they went from a Crappy starting QB to a who knows but probably crappier QB...

 

[averagejoe]

Plummer/Cutler, Pennington/Henne, Cutler/McCown, Fitzpatrick(possibly now Geno as well)......zero elite talents there

Oh I don't know.
Pennington was pretty good. Just couldn't stay healthy.
Loved Plummer too.
I think Cutler is good, but constant coaching changes at OC in Chicago ruined him IMO. Plus it took years for the Bears to assemble a decent O-line. Then took several more years to get him some weapons to throw to.
Fitzpatrick is much better than Geno.

Marshall is a great WR tho.

 

[Stomp]

Ingram, Charles, Lacy, McCoy, Johnson, Elliott

Brown, Robinson, Evans, Jeffery, Hopkins, Nelson

 

[TREFF]

Geno is decidedly below average?? sure, maybe, but he never had receivers like he does now... In his 2 seasons of being the everyday starter, he had decker for one season as his best WR... season before that it was Kerley... Very hard to evolve(not saying he could) when your receivers are not great...

So do we really know how BAD Geno is yet?? i would say no...

PLUS, like i mentioned earlier, bad QBs are generally bad due to inaccuracy... nothing better than a big receiver for that... Why do you think there is the old saying that rookie QBs love their TEs??

Also, really all bad QB means is that there will be inconsistency game to game, but the end of season numbers should be better than 200 YPG and 1 TD per game...

Again, i have a hard time believing if Geno is THAT bad the Jets won't be playing from behind, even if they have a great defense(which i do think is a little over-rated)... and if they are playing from behind a lot that will only be more targets for Marshall...

I think it is one thing if the Jets went from a stud QB to a crappy one, then i would agree that the NEW QB would be a significant disadvantage... But if they don't resign Fitz and go with Geno, they went from a Crappy starting QB to a who knows but probably crappier QB...

He's a bad QB becuase he makes poor decisions, the inaccuracy is only a side issue. Big receivers aren't going to make him a competent QB.
It's sad that you're hoping for numbers that "should be better than 200 and 1 a game"..yes that's talking about a QB who is decidedly below average when your hopes are that he can achieve bottom of the barrel numbers.

Your not giving Fitzpatrick the credit he deserves. No he's no world beater, but he's decent. 4000 and 31 vs 15 int's, proves he's at least that. He threw for more TD's in 16 games than Geno has his entire career. The step down may not be like losing Luck and ending up with Geno, but its still a massive step down. Fitz isn't a crappy starting QB, he's an adequate, decent, starting QB. You're making him out to be this terrible option, and the simple truth is he's better than that, not great by any means, but better than you're giving him credit for.

 

[ehb5]

He's a bad QB becuase he makes poor decisions, the inaccuracy is only a side issue. Big receivers aren't going to make him a competent QB.
It's sad that you're hoping for numbers that "should be better than 200 and 1 a game"..yes that's talking about a QB who is decidedly below average when your hopes are that he can achieve bottom of the barrel numbers.

Your not giving Fitzpatrick the credit he deserves. No he's no world beater, but he's decent. 4000 and 31 vs 15 int's, proves he's at least that. He threw for more TD's in 16 games than Geno has his entire career. The step down may not be like losing Luck and ending up with Geno, but its still a massive step down. Fitz isn't a crappy starting QB, he's an adequate, decent, starting QB. You're making him out to be this terrible option, and the simple truth is he's better than that, not great by any means, but better than you're giving him credit for.

Fitzpatrick makes just as bad of decisions tbh.

 

[SmokingMonkey]

Fitzpatrick makes just as bad of decisions tbh.

Only in the 2nd half though, lol

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He's a bad QB becuase he makes poor decisions, the inaccuracy is only a side issue. Big receivers aren't going to make him a competent QB.
It's sad that you're hoping for numbers that "should be better than 200 and 1 a game"..yes that's talking about a QB who is decidedly below average when your hopes are that he can achieve bottom of the barrel numbers.

Your not giving Fitzpatrick the credit he deserves. No he's no world beater, but he's decent. 4000 and 31 vs 15 int's, proves he's at least that. He threw for more TD's in 16 games than Geno has his entire career. The step down may not be like losing Luck and ending up with Geno, but its still a massive step down. Fitz isn't a crappy starting QB, he's an adequate, decent, starting QB. You're making him out to be this terrible option, and the simple truth is he's better than that, not great by any means, but better than you're giving him credit for.

Again, not saying Geno is anything special, but don't you think he SHOULD be better this season with the talent he has at receivers??

Whats interesting is that Fitzpatrick had his career season last year, and many are talking him up to be the Jets savior... He ONLY threw to Decker and Marshall, so it is clear that the receivers made his season and not the other way around... If you want to say he was a good fit, sure you are probably right... His Harvard education and being smart sure helped his mental game, which is a big aspect of QBing... BUT, I just have a hard time 100% dismissing Geno, he never had the talent surrounding him, and he is a young QB with more talent and skill than Fitzpatrick...

Now, I am not saying Geno will be anything great, but I do believe at the end of the season he will play AROUND league average QB... I wonder who was the last bad QB with such good receivers around him who had a terrible FANTASY type season...