Series Thread: NBA Finals: Toronto Raptors vs Golden State Warriors

[CitySushi]

Call me crazy but I think the real secret to Kerr's success is Mike Brown. Since he became an assistant the Warriors are 2-0 in the Final & eyeing a 3-peat. But that glory hog Kerr is taking all the credit.

Alvin Gentry's also undefeated in the finals as a lead assistant for the Warriors. You might be on to something.

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

But keep pushing the narrative that Kerr inherited an allstar cast.

He also doesn't coach much, don't forget that part

 

[dtgold88]

He was clearly and objectively outcoached by Lue in that series. No question. Perfection isn't a necessary requirement for the job.

Also funny how you like to play the woulda/coulda/shoulda game all the time. What if this...what if that. Well why don't you actually just tackle the tangible thing in front of you which has a proven track record.

See the thing about your "give him talent and he'll win, don't and he won't" comment is that applicable to literally EVERY COACH IN NBA HISTORY. You think Carlisle wins a title without one of the greatest PF's of all time in Dirk and one of the greatest Point Guards in Kidd? You think Riley wins any titles without Magic, Wade or Shaq? You think Pop wins any titles without Duncan, Robinson, Ginobili, Parker? Rudy T without Hakeem and Drexler?

I give up.

I am "tackling the tangible". He does have arguably the 2 best shooters in the game and probably at worst a top 3 player as well.

Also tangible he was outcoached by Lue the only time their talent was similar.

Carlisle not the best example here as he won a title with a roster many think was less talented than the team his played. Not sure Kerr has ever stepped on the court with that same dynamic in a playoff game.

 

[dtgold88]

Damn right. For the # 1 overall pick Kenyon Martin didn't live up to expectations.

He's no ABenn

 

[dtgold88]

I think I know what's going on here. Here's my take on Kerr. And you're right, he didn't over a roster full of AS's. It's tough to properly judge him as HC because of the great team he has. But before I go on I wanna say I think he's a damn good HC. A coach doesn't go to 5 straights Finals if he doesn't know what he's doing.

He obviously hasn't had a roster lacking talent. Or taken over a perennial cellar dweller. But that's a bit of nitpicking. As far as I'm concerned ranking current coaches he's gotta be # 2 right? With Pop being # 1. <---shocker huh?

Most accomplished? No doubt top 2. Unlike Pop, though, he has really just taken one crew to the Finals. well one then added Durant.

My take is he's also a good coach. Need to see what he does if he ever has to coach a playoff game without the better team. So far only time would could argue he did they lost.

 

[dtgold88]

100% Pop is #1. Without question.

Kerr has definitely been blessed with talent. Absolute fact. But diminishing what he's been able to accomplish as him being completely replaceable by another coach is ridiculously understating what actual, tangible, changes he's made with the team. I've been one of the more critical ones around here of Kerr. You can go back and look at how many times I've bitched about rotations, in game adjustments, and just questionable moves. But overall I give him his due because he designed the overall car and made sure each player was a working part to make it an unstoppable machine.

Part of being a coach is understanding your players and putting them in positions to succeed. There have been plenty of talented teams in the past that haven't gotten it done because they haven't been put in the best positions to succeed. From a talent perspective, the 76ers had way more than any other team in the East. They didn't make it to the conference finals. The Nuggets had way more talent overall than the Blazers, but they didn't make it either. The Clippers had CP3, JJ Redick, Jamal Crawford, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, etc. and never made it past the 2nd round. Lots of examples in NBA history of teams underachieving based on talent.

76ers had been together maybe 15 minutes before the playoffs started and did not have home court against the better teams they faced. Denver "way more talent than Portland"? Just to say more is debatable, but "way more" is a bit extreme.

How often did the Clippers get to the playoffs with CP3 and Griffin healthy? Is that on the coach?

All that said, I'm not completely downplaying the coach of a team, but shouldn't Kerr have to win a series when his team does not have more talent than the opponent before calling him one of the best in the game?

Even Lue has done this (could even be argued Blatt did after Love went down when they beat #1 seed Atlanta).

 

[dtgold88]

Call me crazy but I think the real secret to Kerr's success is Mike Brown. Since he became an assistant the Warriors are 2-0 in the Final & eyeing a 3-peat. But that glory hog Kerr is taking all the credit.

He is 12-0 in the playoffs with them so maybe

 

[CitySushi]

76ers had been together maybe 15 minutes before the playoffs started and did not have home court against the better teams they faced. Denver "way more talent than Portland"? Just to say more is debatable, but "way more" is a bit extreme.

How often did the Clippers get to the playoffs with CP3 and Griffin healthy? Is that on the coach?

All that said, I'm not completely downplaying the coach of a team, but shouldn't Kerr have to win a series when his team does not have more talent than the opponent before calling him one of the best in the game?

Even Lue has done this (could even be argued Blatt did after Love went down when they beat #1 seed Atlanta).

Kerr took a 6th seed and turned them into a Champion and back to back finals appearances before KD. So doing that doesn't validate him as a coach? LOL.

He didn't miraculously show up and inherit the #1 seed in 2015. He turned that team into the #1 seed. Before the season started would you have seriously ranked Golden State as top 3 seed in the West that year? No, because no sane person would have.

Here were the Preseason Odds for the teams projected to win a championship.

Early NBA Preseason 2014-15 Title Odds for All 30 Teams

1) Cavs - 5/2
2) Spurs - 4/1
3) Thunder 11/2
4) Bulls - 11/2
5) Clippers - 10/1
6) Rockets - 20/1
7) Mavericks - 20/1
8) Warriors - 25/1

The Warriors by odds makers were projected to be the 6th seed in the West after the Spurs, Thunder, Clippers, Rockets, and Mavericks.

 

[dtgold88]

Kerr took a 6th seed and turned them into a Champion and back to back finals appearances before KD. So doing that doesn't validate him as a coach? LOL.

He didn't miraculously show up and inherit the #1 seed in 2015. He turned that team into the #1 seed. Before the season started would you have seriously ranked Golden State as top 3 seed in the West that year? No, because no sane person would have.

Here were the Preseason Odds for the teams projected to win a championship.

Early NBA Preseason 2014-15 Title Odds for All 30 Teams

1) Cavs - 5/2
2) Spurs - 4/1
3) Thunder 11/2
4) Bulls - 11/2
5) Clippers - 10/1
6) Rockets - 20/1
7) Mavericks - 20/1
8) Warriors - 25/1

The Warriors by odds makers were projected to be the 6th seed in the West after the Spurs, Thunder, Clippers, Rockets, and Mavericks.

Never said he was not "validated as a coach". said he's a solid coach. Clearly, not much more could have been done with the team than he did last 4-5 seasons

Great job in 2015. One year. Hell, great reg. season in 2016, but even per you he shit the bed against ty Lue and the Cavs. Arguably the only time he faced a team with equal talent in the playoffs.

Not even fair to wonder what he'd do if his team wasn't more talented than the opposition. Kind of putting down his own big 3 to think they could not have gotten where they were had they never met Steve Kerr.

 

[Bart]

If I was the warriors i wouldnt risk sending durant or thompson out there for tonights game. you may go up 2-1 if u play them but risk further injuring them for the rest of the series

I would agree but I have my doubts either one of them is healthy enough to contribute like they need to ever in this series.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Kerr took a 6th seed and turned them into a Champion and back to back finals appearances before KD. So doing that doesn't validate him as a coach? LOL.

He didn't miraculously show up and inherit the #1 seed in 2015. He turned that team into the #1 seed. Before the season started would you have seriously ranked Golden State as top 3 seed in the West that year? No, because no sane person would have.

Here were the Preseason Odds for the teams projected to win a championship.

Early NBA Preseason 2014-15 Title Odds for All 30 Teams

1) Cavs - 5/2
2) Spurs - 4/1
3) Thunder 11/2
4) Bulls - 11/2
5) Clippers - 10/1
6) Rockets - 20/1
7) Mavericks - 20/1
8) Warriors - 25/1

The Warriors by odds makers were projected to be the 6th seed in the West after the Spurs, Thunder, Clippers, Rockets, and Mavericks.

Not saying Kerr does not or does deserve the entitlement of a great coach but on that run that year the Warriors got a lot of breaks. Still played great no doubt, they were forming into a superteam/great team this year though. But all of that big 3 had breakout years especially in the playoffs, Klay and Steph were playing great ball, both were breakout players this year in the playoffs, Draymond was too. His step from 13-14 to 14-15 was huge...Kerr had a lot to do with that but they had a great team. Odds weren't on their side to start but that also doesn't mean it was all Kerr. He deserves credit but also that big 3 and Iggy.

Pelicans lost Holiday. They had no chance.
The Grizz had injuries to Conley and Allen in that series.
Houston overachieved and beat that Clippers team. Clippers would have been a better matchup imo.
Then the Cavs didn't have Love or Kyrie and somehow stole 2 games.

A lot of IF's but as you said you gotta give credit to Kerr to putting it altogether. This was definitely his breakout year as a coach, Draymond as a player as well. Klay and Curry in the playoffs...the rest is history.

 

[CitySushi]

Not saying Kerr does not or does deserve the entitlement of a great coach but on that run that year the Warriors got a lot of breaks. Still played great no doubt, they were forming into a superteam/great team this year though. But all of that big 3 had breakout years especially in the playoffs, Klay and Steph were playing great ball, both were breakout players this year in the playoffs, Draymond was too. His step from 13-14 to 14-15 was huge...Kerr had a lot to do with that but they had a great team. Odds weren't on their side to start but that also doesn't mean it was all Kerr. He deserves credit but also that big 3 and Iggy.

Pelicans lost Holiday. They had no chance.
The Grizz had injuries to Conley and Allen in that series.
Houston overachieved and beat that Clippers team. Clippers would have been a better matchup imo.
Then the Cavs didn't have Love or Kyrie and somehow stole 2 games.

A lot of IF's but as you said you gotta give credit to Kerr to putting it altogether. This was definitely his breakout year as a coach, Draymond as a player as well. Klay and Curry in the playoffs...the rest is history.

@dtgold88

Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to hype up Kerr like he's some beast of a coach. Again, I've been hyper critical of him when the times called for it. All I'm trying to say is that the baseline of a coach should always be to improve the team. It's getting guys to play above their ability levels and in 2015 and 2016, it's clearly what Kerr did as he again didn't "inherit" a roster full of stars. He help cultivate them into them and put them into clear roles that have now defined their careers.

In game adjustments, in my estimation, he's much closer to league average than he is at being elite. Implementing a system to get the most out of his guys and also keep ego's in check, he's 100% elite at.

I'm less impressed with a team overachieving for a brief period than I am with building up sustainable greatness, which Kerr has done.

 

[dtgold88]

Not saying Kerr does not or does deserve the entitlement of a great coach but on that run that year the Warriors got a lot of breaks. Still played great no doubt, they were forming into a superteam/great team this year though. But all of that big 3 had breakout years especially in the playoffs, Klay and Steph were playing great ball, both were breakout players this year in the playoffs, Draymond was too. His step from 13-14 to 14-15 was huge...Kerr had a lot to do with that but they had a great team. Odds weren't on their side to start but that also doesn't mean it was all Kerr. He deserves credit but also that big 3 and Iggy.

Pelicans lost Holiday. They had no chance.
The Grizz had injuries to Conley and Allen in that series.
Houston overachieved and beat that Clippers team. Clippers would have been a better matchup imo.
Then the Cavs didn't have Love or Kyrie and somehow stole 2 games.

A lot of IF's but as you said you gotta give credit to Kerr to putting it altogether. This was definitely his breakout year as a coach, Draymond as a player as well. Klay and Curry in the playoffs...the rest is history.

agree with all of this. should also be mentioned, didn't the Clips go down with no Griffin and CP3 to Houston? Huge break they never faced that team.

Most important, as mentioned, really a slap in the face to Curry/Green/Klay to think they are where they are solely because Kerr was their coach.

 

[msgkings322]

76ers had been together maybe 15 minutes before the playoffs started and did not have home court against the better teams they faced. Denver "way more talent than Portland"? Just to say more is debatable, but "way more" is a bit extreme.

How often did the Clippers get to the playoffs with CP3 and Griffin healthy? Is that on the coach?

All that said, I'm not completely downplaying the coach of a team, but shouldn't Kerr have to win a series when his team does not have more talent than the opponent before calling him one of the best in the game?

Even Lue has done this (could even be argued Blatt did after Love went down when they beat #1 seed Atlanta).

But then no one is "one of the best in the game". Other than Popovich, is there any coach currently in the league you think is a good coach?

 

[Robotech]

agree with all of this. should also be mentioned, didn't the Clips go down with no Griffin and CP3 to Houston? Huge break they never faced that team.

Most important, as mentioned, really a slap in the face to Curry/Green/Klay to think they are where they are solely because Kerr was their coach.

Except for Chris Paul last year, I can't really think of a series outcome that changed because of injuries to the Warriors opponent. And with Chris Paul, you also have to remember that the Warriors were leading the series when Iguodala got injured.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

We know (per the Dubs) that KD is definitely out for tonight's game 3, and Iggy will be good to go...but is there any other news about Klay's status? (other than being listed as "questionable")??

 

[dtgold88]

But then no one is "one of the best in the game". Other than Popovich, is there any coach currently in the league you think is a good coach?

I think Kerr is a good coach. Among the best? Hard to know.

Think I've said I prefer guys who have shown they can do more with less like Larry Brown. Not sure who that might be in today's NBA.

 

[msgkings322]

I think Kerr is a good coach. Among the best? Hard to know.

Think I've said I prefer guys who have shown they can do more with less like Larry Brown. Not sure who that might be in today's NBA.

So you think Pop and Kerr are good coaches. If you can't name another that puts Kerr squarely among the best active coaches. I would add Stotts, and God help me Doc Rivers, who both did a lot with less this year at least

 

[dtgold88]

Except for Chris Paul last year, I can't really think of a series outcome that changed because of injuries to the Warriors opponent. And with Chris Paul, you also have to remember that the Warriors were leading the series when Iguodala got injured.

Seems like for a long stretch it was almost a given the team GS played in playoffs would be missing their starting PG for games or entire series.

Off the top of my head I recall Conley, CP, Kyrie, Beverly, Holiday, Rubio, Parker

 

[dtgold88]

So you think Pop and Kerr are good coaches. If you can't name another that puts Kerr squarely among the best active coaches. I would add Stotts, and God help me Doc Rivers, who both did a lot with less this year at least

agree about Doc. Totally forgot about him. Think his best performance might have been, believe it or not, in the series with GS this season.

couldn't show it in NY, but I like Fizzdale. Bud and also like Stotts. Like the job Malone did in Denver this year