MLB HOF Vote

[Voltaire26]

I think Mays is a no-question inclusion. Bonds has enough stink on him I understand not including him. Especially when there is enough other OMG talent in this pool. No point making a big argument out if it.

If I am picking 2nd in a draft ... I am taking Bonds. (actually even if I pick first). Bonds is an asshole, so is Cobb, Rose, Williams, Henderson, Hornsby and Frank Robinson are all asshole ... I love 'em!!!

 

[calsnowskier]

If I am picking 2nd in a draft ... I am taking Bonds. (actually even if I pick first). Bonds is an asshole, so is Cobb, Rose, Williams, Henderson, Hornsby and Frank Robinson are all asshole ... I love 'em!!!

Mays brings elite CF defense while Bonds only brings superior LF defense. I think I might have to pick Mays with the first pick.

But I certainly would not feel bad if I were the team picking after me.

 

[navamind]

But let's say postseason numbers should be considered, for players who are at least borderline. That does give Ortiz the edge but does that make him a first ballot Hall of Famer? And Sosa's numbers weren't bad in the postseason (.245/.403/.415 in 15 games). His problem was being on teams that never made the postseason. Should that make him a 10th ballot denial, when comparing him to a 1st ballot elected player?

Yeah, Sosa's bat incident is an embarrassment but is that enough to deny him entrance? There are plenty of players there who did do similar kinds of cheating. An incident resulting in a 8 game suspension doesn't have the same weight as an incident that results in a season long suspension.

As for years of dominance, I guess that is a matter of debate. To me, career numbers are important. Yes, Ortiz did have more number of "dominant" seasons than Sosa. But if WAR is worth anything, shouldn't it be considered how much value the two brought over the course of their careers? And how about defensive value? Sosa was no gold glover but, apparently, he brought more value defensively than Ortiz did. That should count for something when determing if Sosa is a guy who really should have been strung along for 10 years, only to get bumped from the ballot, while Ortiz gets in on his first ballot appearance?

cal, I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue. I guess my takeaway is that player comparisons can be overly simplistic but I do see value in doing them. Maybe more information needs to be given in them for them to be taken more seriously.

I don't think postseason stats should hurt anyone's cases but rather I think they should be seen as a bonus, especially if that player has a signifcant amount of playing time in the postseason (80+ games, 100+ innings). Kershaw is an obvious HOFer and one of the best pitchers of my lifetime despite the playoff inconsistencies. As far as Hershier goes, I don't think he should be in. Great postseason pitcher and while he had a pretty nice stretch from 1984-89, he was a pretty average pitcher for the rest of his career. I do think he's more qualified than, say... Jack Morris.

 

[Pure Steel]

I don't think postseason stats should hurt anyone's cases but rather I think they should be seen as a bonus, especially if that player has a signifcant amount of playing time in the postseason (80+ games, 100+ innings). Kershaw is an obvious HOFer and one of the best pitchers of my lifetime despite the playoff inconsistencies. As far as Hershier goes, I don't think he should be in. Great postseason pitcher and while he had a pretty nice stretch from 1984-89, he was a pretty average pitcher for the rest of his career. I do think he's more qualified than, say... Jack Morris.

Then there’s Mariano……

 

[msgkings322]

I don't think postseason numbers should determine whether a player makes it in the HOF. Orel Hershiser was a good pitcher for a good chunk of his career but turned it up a couple of notches in the postseason. Does that mean he should be in the HOF? Clayton Kershaw has done the opposite. Does that hinder him from getting into the HOF? In my opinion, postseason numbers are footnotes on a career. If the guy earns a spot in the HOF and he blew it up in the postseason - great! If he makes it in the HOF but got blown up in the postseason - oh well. Its nice to see the production but there are guys who weren't even close to HOF worthy have had great postseasons.

But let's say postseason numbers should be considered, for players who are at least borderline. That does give Ortiz the edge but does that make him a first ballot Hall of Famer? And Sosa's numbers weren't bad in the postseason (.245/.403/.415 in 15 games). His problem was being on teams that never made the postseason. Should that make him a 10th ballot denial, when comparing him to a 1st ballot elected player?

Yeah, Sosa's bat incident is an embarrassment but is that enough to deny him entrance? There are plenty of players there who did do similar kinds of cheating. An incident resulting in a 8 game suspension doesn't have the same weight as an incident that results in a season long suspension.

As for years of dominance, I guess that is a matter of debate. To me, career numbers are important. Yes, Ortiz did have more number of "dominant" seasons than Sosa. But if WAR is worth anything, shouldn't it be considered how much value the two brought over the course of their careers? And how about defensive value? Sosa was no gold glover but, apparently, he brought more value defensively than Ortiz did. That should count for something when determing if Sosa is a guy who really should have been strung along for 10 years, only to get bumped from the ballot, while Ortiz gets in on his first ballot appearance?

cal, I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue. I guess my takeaway is that player comparisons can be overly simplistic but I do see value in doing them. Maybe more information needs to be given in them for them to be taken more seriously.

I couldn't disagree more strongly on that...it's the hall of FAME. Narratives matter. Post seasons matter. It's the biggest part of the game and you can't just say that has nothing to do with all time greatness.

 

[calsnowskier]

I couldn't disagree more strongly on that...it's the hall of FAME. Narratives matter. Post seasons matter. It's the biggest part of the game and you can't just say that has nothing to do with all time greatness.

Kershaw is one of the greatest pitchers ever. His post season resume is less-than-stellar. First ballot HOFer.

Bonds was one of the greatest players ever (if not THE greatest). His post season resume is less-than-stellar. He SHOULD HAVE been a first ballot HOFer.

Bum is a good, all-star level SP. His post season resume is one of the strongest ever. He will likely remain on the ballot his full 10 years, but never get in.

Ichiro was the first great player to come over from Japan. He was an amazing singles hitter/OBP guy, but didn’t have much power (his best OPS+ was 130). Due to his cultural impact, he will likely be a first ballot, near unanimous HOFer.


HOF is not (and should not be) purely regular season numbers. The story matters. The feels matter.

 

[navamind]

Then there’s Mariano……

0.70 ERA over 141 IP... that's basically two seasons worth of reliever innings.

 

[Pure Steel]

0.70 ERA over 141 IP... that's basically two seasons worth of reliever innings.

Or one season for Dan Quisenberry……who is so underrated

 

[LHG]

I couldn't disagree more strongly on that...it's the hall of FAME. Narratives matter. Post seasons matter. It's the biggest part of the game and you can't just say that has nothing to do with all time greatness.

I'm saying it doesn't make much of difference in determining WHO gets into the Hall of Fame. If it is really a determining factor, then should some guys who've missed it because their regular season narrative numbers were not that healthy actually be in the HOF? Are there some guys who had great careers but were piss poor in the playoffs get booted? Yes, its the biggest part of the game, for teams, but individual players' postseason matter little when making the decision. It really only adds to the shine of guys who do deserve to be in the HOF, in my opinion.

 

[LHG]

Kershaw is one of the greatest pitchers ever. His post season resume is less-than-stellar. First ballot HOFer.

Bonds was one of the greatest players ever (if not THE greatest). His post season resume is less-than-stellar. He SHOULD HAVE been a first ballot HOFer.

Bum is a good, all-star level SP. His post season resume is one of the strongest ever. He will likely remain on the ballot his full 10 years, but never get in.

Ichiro was the first great player to come over from Japan. He was an amazing singles hitter/OBP guy, but didn’t have much power (his best OPS+ was 130). Due to his cultural impact, he will likely be a first ballot, near unanimous HOFer.


HOF is not (and should not be) purely regular season numbers. The story matters. The feels matter.

Aren't you kinda arguing against MSG's point? You are measuring the standard of their careers on regular season numbers.

The problem with leaning on story and feel is that it gets lost in subsequent generations (with exceptions, but those are generally buoyed by their numbers) and we get people saying that these players, who got in based on story and feel, don't deserve to be in the HOF 50 or 60 years latter. Their just seen as a player who got on the good side of the voters at that time.

 

[calsnowskier]

Aren't you kinda arguing against MSG's point? You are measuring the standard of their careers on regular season numbers.

The problem with leaning on story and feel is that it gets lost in subsequent generations (with exceptions, but those are generally buoyed by their numbers) and we get people saying that these players, who got in based on story and feel, don't deserve to be in the HOF 50 or 60 years latter. Their just seen as a player who got on the good side of the voters at that time.

I am bringing troof. I don’t care which side of the argument it falls.

 

[calsnowskier]

Jack Morris made it, primarily based on his post season heroics. I am sure Twins fans agree that he belongs, but most fans of other teams, I think, feel he is more in the Harold Baines wing than the Christy Mathewson wing.

 

[Voltaire26]

Jack Morris made it, primarily based on his post season heroics. I am sure Twins fans agree that he belongs, but most fans of other teams, I think, feel he is more in the Harold Baines wing than the Christy Mathewson wing.

Agreed the Hall of Pretty Good where Ortiz belongs.

 

[Cedrique]

Aren't you kinda arguing against MSG's point? You are measuring the standard of their careers on regular season numbers.

The problem with leaning on story and feel is that it gets lost in subsequent generations (with exceptions, but those are generally buoyed by their numbers) and we get people saying that these players, who got in based on story and feel, don't deserve to be in the HOF 50 or 60 years latter. Their just seen as a player who got on the good side of the voters at that time.

Yeah I think the way less than hall of famers who are heroic in the post season are usually rewarded is by being put on a "Wall of Fame" in the stadium where their team played. I think every team has some variation of that. So someone like Daniel Murphy, who is not a hall of famer, I could see him being on a Mets wall of fame because he spent a decent amount of time on the Mets and had that one season where he hit everything in the postseason. Or Sandoval with the Giants, Kirk Gibson with the Tigers (and maybe the Dodgers too)

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah I think the way less than hall of famers who are heroic in the post season are usually rewarded is by being put on a "Wall of Fame" in the stadium where their team played. I think every team has some variation of that. So someone like Daniel Murphy, who is not a hall of famer, I could see him being on a Mets wall of fame because he spent a decent amount of time on the Mets and had that one season where he hit everything in the postseason. Or Sandoval with the Giants, Kirk Gibson with the Tigers (and maybe the Dodgers too)

And then you have Jack Morris.

LOL

 

[Cedrique]

And then you have Jack Morris.

LOL

Morris is probably on some walls of fame too. But if I remember right the other narrative around him was that he "pitched to the score" or something, which allowed him to get 250 wins . I forget exactly how the argument went, but I don't know if it was ever proven statistically.

I will say that although people today completely disregard the win stat I think it had a little more validity 30-40 years ago. Morris was part of one of the last groups of pitchers in a time when an ace starter was expected to try for a complete game or at least something close to it. In today's game where the starter goes out and throws his best 95 pitches then sits down and lets the bullpen take over the win/loss stat is pretty much a crap shoot.

 

[Cedrique]

And then you have Jack Morris.

LOL

haha Jack Morris 2.0?

Is Jon Lester a Hall of Famer?

Former Red Sox hurler Jon Lester made headlines when he announced his retirement after 16 seasons. Does he have a future in Cooperstown?

lastwordonsports.com

 

[catman]

If I am picking 2nd in a draft ... I am taking Bonds. (actually even if I pick first). Bonds is an asshole, so is Cobb, Rose, Williams, Henderson, Hornsby and Frank Robinson are all asshole ... I love 'em!!!

Ted Williams got a very bad rap. He was really a pretty decent guy, at times. I saw him at Bob Feller's museum a while back and autographs were $50/each. A little kid came in with his mother, carrying his "Teddy Ballgame" book. He started crying when his mother was told that it would cost $50 to get it autographed. When Ted saw this he said, in his booming voice, "Bring the kid here". He signed the book, gave the mom a hug and told Bob that if it cost the museum anything, he would cover it.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Good article from a few days ago by SF Examiner's Al Saracevic on Barry Bonds....

I voted for Barry Bonds to get into the Hall of Fame. Here’s why it didn’t matter

Giants star falls short in his 10th and final season of standard eligibility

www.sfexaminer.com

 

[navamind]

haha Jack Morris 2.0?

Is Jon Lester a Hall of Famer?

Former Red Sox hurler Jon Lester made headlines when he announced his retirement after 16 seasons. Does he have a future in Cooperstown?

lastwordonsports.com

I think Lester was a better pitcher than Morris, but I don't think he's a HOFer.