McCovey, please!!

[Voltaire26]

I always suspected Sosa,but never thought McGwire used.Always thought he was a legit player.......And as far as pitchers,such as Clemens,does it really help them throw a ball faster...........?

Btw.............nice pic.

It was a great time ... it was fun even for those of us no in Chicago or St. Louis. Steroids helped the pitchers heal faster and throw harder. You still had to be accurate, just like batters still had to hit the ball.

 

[JohnU]

Again, no new turf being plowed after 15 years of debating this.
But I would implore the conversation to include Rose's situation on its own merits and PEDs on their own merits.
Rose knew the consequences of gambling and whether he bet on his own team is really aside from the problem.

One assumes that he bet on games because he had insight. How that affected pennant races is hard to tell because not everyone shares what everyone knows. I'd also have to believe that Rose did bet on Reds games. Either way, the franchise began an upward tilt after he became the manager. His gambling began long before that time. He played hard enough to get more hits than anybody in MLB history and learned to play 3 or 4 defensive positions quite well. He was the epitome of hard-nosed ball.

REDs, PEDs ... same topic? Nope.

PEDs, on the other hand, was somewhat uncharted territory at first and I would seriously doubt that players who initially took them were doing it for any other reason than to stay on the field, meaning -- heal faster after being plunked in the butt by a fastball or fighting off a strawberry from diving into first base on a pickoff throw.

It took scientific conversations to learn how to use HGH like McGwire, Sosa and Bonds, etc. learned.


I honestly don't have a problem with any of these guys in the H of F, because MLB used their talents and seasons to promote the sport. Bud Selig never had a problem with MLB making billions of dollars off the players, and commissioners ahead of Selig did the same when the superstars of the time, Rose and Clemens included, were the reason people followed baseball.

The problem isn't MLB, however. It's the Hall of Fame. Any of these guys -- Rose included now -- is eligible to be inducted into the Hall. The Black Sox guys are still banned, as far as I can remember. There were other guys who were banned back in Landis' day, by the way, not all for gambling.

But look at it this way -- damned few of the game's greats ever get 96 percent of the vote? Why, because there are assholes BBWA members out there who are going to make sure some stupid traditions are upheld.

The Hall isn't run by MLB, just endorsed by it.

But I don't think this is ever about "well, if Pete can't get in, then Sosa can't either." That's the wrong conversation. They have to be treated on their own merits.

 

[Montalban]

I actually agree with this. He could have been a first ballot HOFer but instead he gets in in the 7th or 8th year. That's a legit slap in the face, which he deserves. But he will, and must, get in.

"%$#@!" .............The international symbol for stunned silence.

 

[msgkings322]

"%$#@!" .............The international symbol for stunned silence.

I only agree he deserved to wait to get in. You probably think he should never get in. Like all your other sports takes, that one's wrong too.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

 

[Montalban]

I only agree he deserved to wait to get in. You probably think he should never get in. Like all your other sports takes, that one's wrong too.

And again you would be wrong; no surprise there but what I would be in favor of is to judge Bonds on his stats up through 1998 which was McGwire's big year and is generally considered to be what spurred Bonds to go the steroid route.
I think prior to that year Bonds was a three time MVP and a brilliant player. If they stipulated the vote was for his performance during that time frame I'd be in favor of it.

 

[JohnU]

And again you would be wrong; no surprise there but what I would be in favor of is to judge Bonds on his stats up through 1998 which was McGwire's big year and is generally considered to be what spurred Bonds to go the steroid route.
I think prior to that year Bonds was a three time MVP and a brilliant player. If they stipulated the vote was for his performance during that time frame I'd be in favor of it.

Well if you are going to limit H of F eligibility on selected end points, Mark Fidrych is a lock for Cooperstown.

 

[Mondo Jay]

Steroids are just like greenies. Both were available in a big bowl in the locker room for anyone to pop at will.

Right?

 

[Mondo Jay]

I don`t think Rose bet on his own team tho.

Apparently Dowd had evidence to the contrary. Thus Rose signing the lifetime ban.

 

[Mondo Jay]

There was no rule in baseball against PEDS until 2003.

Were they legal to take without prescription?

 

[navamind]

The Integrity Clause

 

[calsnowskier]

Were they legal to take without prescription?

Most took with an Rx, so that really isn’t an issue.

 

[Mondo Jay]

Most took with an Rx, so that really isn’t an issue.

Really? I didn't know that. I thought these guys were trying to keep this shit hidden (except Mac's Andro in his locker).
So you are saying that most players (not sure how you know the "most" part) took Roids legally?

I used to follow this all very closely, but I do not remember that revelation (to me).

Then again, I consume a lot of weed and sech.

 

[Montalban]

Well if you are going to limit H of F eligibility on selected end points, Mark Fidrych is a lock for Cooperstown.

Please. Are you comparing Fidrych's body of work to Bonds'? C'mon now if you are going to pipe up at least try to make a little sense.

 

[calsnowskier]

Really? I didn't know that. I thought these guys were trying to keep this shit hidden (except Mac's Andro in his locker).
So you are saying that most players (not sure how you know the "most" part) took Roids legally?

I used to follow this all very closely, but I do not remember that revelation (to me).

Then again, I consume a lot of weed and sech.

They were working with doctors. But I may be mistaken on the Rx part...

Even if they didn’t, breaking laws is not the same as breaking baseball rules. Laws are more important in the grand scheme of things, but we are not talking about the grand scheme. We are talking about baseball.

 

[JohnU]

Please. Are you comparing Fidrych's body of work to Bonds'? C'mon now if you are going to pipe up at least try to make a little sense.

Dude you can't arbitrarily carve off parts of a player's career to conveniently make his case. This bullshit about Bonds has been going on for 15 years and you suddenly want to "pipe up" and offer still more engaging testimony. You got something new other than, well ... let's just only count the years when he wasn't roiding. How do you know when he started roiding? Just because you think it makes sense to say, 1998?

 

[Montalban]

Dude you can't arbitrarily carve off parts of a player's career to conveniently make his case. This bullshit about Bonds has been going on for 15 years and you suddenly want to "pipe up" and offer still more engaging testimony. You got something new other than, well ... let's just only count the years when he wasn't roiding. How do you know when he started roiding? Just because you think it makes sense to say, 1998?

Its generally understood that he started after McGwire had the big year in 98. Bonds did not like a white dude out-shining him. His racist views caused him to go to roids like McGwire did and ultimately cost him not only the HoF but his credibility as one of the great players of his time.

 

[Montalban]

It was a great time ... it was fun even for those of us no in Chicago or St. Louis. Steroids helped the pitchers heal faster and throw harder. You still had to be accurate, just like batters still had to hit the ball.

That is my understanding as well.

 

[Voltaire26]

That is my understanding as well.

It was also fun watching Bonds pass Hank Aaron's HR mark!!

 

[Montalban]

It was also fun watching Bonds pass Hank Aaron's HR mark!!

It was. I was overseas and was probably the last to find out Bonds was cheating, so at that time I thought I was witnessing something historical and, to make it even better, it was a guy on my team. I'm glad I didn't know at that time.