Mayhew may franchise Suh

[Dr. Evil-er]

For the record, after having watched Suh dominate the Dallas game (he disrupted almost every play) I'm good with the Lions dropping a deal that averages $17.5m.

My biggest fear is the fucktards running the team will butcher the way the deal is structured.

 

[jdwills126]

Id support restructuring AND extending Stafford to free up money in 16, 17 and 18 to sign Suh to a nice 5-6 year deal. (Calvin off the books after 18)

Yeah, I said it. And I meant it.

Get this shit done Mayhew, ya Bumblefuck. And cut Reggie Bush as soon as possible.

You do know that would mean Stafford would be the guy for the next 5-6 years! Not sure the Stafford haters would be willing to go that far. But I am use to that type of fan...bitch and moan for Stafford to restructure (or insert players name) and after he does then complain we can't cut or trade him...

Not you Smitty but that happens often.

Guys that the Lions can move on from...cut or not resign:

Bush, Tulloch, Fauria, Raiola, Carey, Ross, Palmer, Orvlosky

Detroit could fill those guys with current players like Riddick, Van Noy, or through the draft.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Guys that the Lions can move on from...cut or not resign:

Bush, Tulloch, Fauria, Raiola, Carey, Ross, Palmer, Orvlosky

Detroit could fill those guys with current players like Riddick, Van Noy, or through the
draft.

I would be willing to bring Palmer back on a one year deal. We would get the veteran salary benefit so he would only cost us about $650k in 2015 but he would be paid closer to $950k.

Perhaps he and his agent would also be smart enough to see that possible playoff $ to stay with the Lions could add to that amount. He isn't a terrible back up and he is still strong as a 4 group special teams player.

 

[jdwills126]

I would be willing to bring Palmer back on a one year deal. We would get the veteran salary benefit so he would only cost us about $650k in 2015 but he would be paid closer to $950k.

Perhaps he and his agent would also be smart enough to see that possible playoff $ to stay with the Lions could add to that amount. He isn't a terrible back up and he is still strong as a 4 group special teams player.

I would like to see a LB drafted to push Van Noy since we didn't get anything out of him. Plus I have seen Palmer for years and want a chance at finding a guy that will develop.

 

[broncosmitty]

You do know that would mean Stafford would be the guy for the next 5-6 years! Not sure the Stafford haters would be willing to go that far. But I am use to that type of fan...bitch and moan for Stafford to restructure (or insert players name) and after he does then complain we can't cut or trade him...

Not you Smitty but that happens often.

Guys that the Lions can move on from...cut or not resign:

Bush, Tulloch, Fauria, Raiola, Carey, Ross, Palmer, Orvlosky

Detroit could fill those guys with current players like Riddick, Van Noy, or through the draft.

Id be happy to see all of those players you listed get cut. Before the season started I prolly would have said Tully was 2nd, 3rd or 4th best of the defensive side. He's been a more than solid, good linebacker, for awhile. But then we all witnessed such an impressive defense without him. And without another guy in Fairley for most of the year, that I would have ranked right up there too. Id gladly take Tully back at a low rate if he can't find a fair deal elsewhere. (Schwartz will lobby for him, wherever he happens to be next year.)

I've accepted Stafford for the long haul. I had high hopes for a breakout year after that Giants game. But even with a rather unimpressive (that sounds a little harsh)next 16 games, I thought it was his best season. I still don't have dreams of him ever being any top five guy, or even necissarily being one of the better second tier guys. But he doesnt suck and he's gonna be our guy, till he's done or doesn't wanna be anymore. (Im not saying just restructure, Im saying restructure and extend. For the now and the future. No more Reggie Bush shiny toy type shit. No Suh bumping back type shit either. Just a skim and stretch type deal.)

That said, if he wants to win a championship, he should know that the odds go WAAAAY up when his defense is high end. And that's a lot easier to envision, for me, with Big Ol' Numba Ninety whippin' ass in Honalulu Blue. If Staff could find it in his heart to spare a Mil or Two err Three and get himself a couple years tacked on, with fair value garaunteed money in '19 and '20. Even if it came with a re-evaluation clause so he doesn't have to worry about being the 22nd highest paid guy 5 years down the road.

Pretty much, to me, what's good for the Lions should be good for Staff at this point. To a degree. And to a much lesser degree, what good for Staff.....

He's been given weapons. In the draft and via FA. A lot. Time to keep a vital piece on the other side. And add some lineman for him thru the upcoming draft.

 

[jdwills126]

Pretty much, to me, what's good for the Lions should be good for Staff at this point. To a degree. And to a much lesser degree, what good for Staff.....

I actually think this was a huge year for Staff. he learned how to manage games and not give the ball away. All those pretty stats and higher turnover rate = more losses. Maybe next year they give him some more rope and see if he can expand on his yards per throw without drastically raising his Int rate.

The fact he had his highest number of sacks for his career bothers me and I probably could have put Sims on that list as well. That O-Line was bullshit this year.

I just can't see Suh getting a huge contract. As good as he is I think Dts are a position you can find good players at a discount. A good MLB like Kuechly or Willis would make a D-Line look good as well.

 

[broncosmitty]

Im with ya on the Staff part. Thought it was his best year. Taking sacks actually was a positive for me. Not that I thought it was an impressive line. But I don't mind sacks on first and second any more than I mind 45 yard picks on third. Not my favorite thing, but it could be worse.

Really would like to see him be at his best in non sandlot last gasp situations. Consistantly.

Willis though, I wouldn't touch. I think his twilight is gonna be short and not all that sweet. Can't/won't knock LK, hes exceptional, but Im not thinking about big name FA adds on D.

Not that Id want Whitehead at the helm without Suh. That's scary to even think about.

 

[jdwills126]

Im with ya on the Staff part. Thought it was his best year. Taking sacks actually was a positive for me. Not that I thought it was an impressive line. But I don't mind sacks on first and second any more than I mind 45 yard picks on third. Not my favorite thing, but it could be worse.

Really would like to see him be at his best in non sandlot last gasp situations. Consistantly.

Willis though, I wouldn't touch. I think his twilight is gonna be short and not all that sweet. Can't/won't knock LK, hes exceptional, but Im not thinking about big name FA adds on D.

Not that Id want Whitehead at the helm without Suh. That's scary to even think about.

I would like to see a big name DB that still has some juice left.

If Staff scrambled more this town would just love him. I am surprised he doesn't his combine stats shows he is an athletic guy. But I still would like to see the Lions draft a guy in the 3rd or 4th to be the #2 instead of Orvlosky or Moore.

Whitehead is serviceable without a big drop-off from what Tulloch gave the Lions.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

I would like to see a LB drafted to push Van Noy since we didn't get anything out of him. Plus I have seen Palmer for years and want a chance at finding a guy that will develop.

I think quite a few people are underestimating this kids future potential for the sole purpose in that he didn't play many snaps after coming off PUP/Special IR and had no worthy impact this year.

1). He had a high ankle sprain, then quad/hammy injury early on in training camp along with a wrist injury.

2). The above noted injuries caused him to miss extremely valuable on-field reps in practice not to mention proper physical training (running, weight-lifting, etc.)

3). Early on in pre-season game (1st or 2nd one) he had the core muscle injury. Those are not easy to deal with by any stretch of the imagination. He has surgery 2-3 weeks later after diagnosis.

4). All these injuries had a huge impact on his training/practicing up through week 9. At this stage it was almost like him starting training camp all over again but now your into week 10 of the regular season and you're being expected, by LIONS FANS mostly, to come in and have some monumental impact because you're a 2nd rd draft pick. Watching game film and doing mental reps is no where near the same as being on the field physically. Who really knows if he was 100%. Maybe Austin/Caldwell played it safe with him by not exposing him to re-injuring himself or he just fell too far behind and couldn't be of help this year. It happens. Former CB Chris Greenwood had the same injury as VanNoy and it hindered his development also (disclaimer here, VanNoy is a better talent and came from a better program than Greenwood, not to mention CB is much more of a difficult transition from college to pro than LB but there still exists a huge learning curve for all incoming players).

 

[jdwills126]

I think quite a few people are underestimating this kids future potential for the sole purpose in that he didn't play many snaps after coming off PUP/Special IR and had no worthy impact this year.

1). He had a high ankle sprain, then quad/hammy injury early on in training camp along with a wrist injury.

2). The above noted injuries caused him to miss extremely valuable on-field reps in practice not to mention proper physical training (running, weight-lifting, etc.)

3). Early on in pre-season game (1st or 2nd one) he had the core muscle injury. Those are not easy to deal with by any stretch of the imagination. He has surgery 2-3 weeks later after diagnosis.

4). All these injuries had a huge impact on his training/practicing up through week 9. At this stage it was almost like him starting training camp all over again but now your into week 10 of the regular season and you're being expected, by LIONS FANS mostly, to come in and have some monumental impact because you're a 2nd rd draft pick. Watching game film and doing mental reps is no where near the same as being on the field physically. Who really knows if he was 100%. Maybe Austin/Caldwell played it safe with him by not exposing him to re-injuring himself or he just fell too far behind and couldn't be of help this year. It happens. Former CB Chris Greenwood had the same injury as VanNoy and it hindered his development also (disclaimer here, VanNoy is a better talent and came from a better program than Greenwood, not to mention CB is much more of a difficult transition from college to pro than LB but there still exists a huge learning curve for all incoming players).

Even before the injury he wasn't close to taking a starting LB spot. He was taken in the second round not the 4th or later so the total need for development should not be even close to a guy like Greenwood. Van Noy was brought in to start as a passing rushing threat and develop from their. No doubt injuries robbed him of this season but he is far from certain at this point. Having another guy to push or develop at the LB spot would help IMO. Levy was a 3rd round pick and is arguable one of the best LB in the NFC. That's the type of gamble I would like to see from Detroit in the draft an upside guy at LB and hopefully 6 years later have another Levy or push Van Noy to be that guy.

 

[TwoCents22]

To everyone saying its not possible to tag Suh, I've been hearing from more people close to the team that it definitely is possible, and even sounding likely.

Tim Twentyman:

"Let’s start with Suh. I’ve said for a while now that I think the team will re-sign him. The Lions think they have a roster to win now and they’re not going to let their top defensive player walk out of the door without exercising every resource available to them to keep him. If that means using the franchise tag on him, they’ve left that option open.

General manager Martin Mayhew even said Thursday the franchise tag wasn’t off the table for Suh. I’ve been saying that for a while now. The salary cap is expected to go up by at least $10 million and the Lions have some contracts on the books that are ripe for simple restructures. They have the money if they think he's that important.

I’ve heard Suh really likes playing for Caldwell. The emotion he showed after last week’s loss in Dallas proves he loves his defensive linemates even more. I think Suh is comfortable in Detroit, the Lions are going to pay him top dollar and he’ll be a Lion in 2015."

Like I said, if/when you hear that Suh has been tagged, please don't go on a rampage. Its a good thing.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Given the way you can manipulate the cap the Lions would absolutely be able to absorb the hit from franchising Suh. It's economically feasible but beyond insane from a business perspective, and that is a huge part of today's game.

So the question isn't a matter of if they can, it's why in the world would they? If we were unable to get a deal done with him last summer, and fail again now, forcing us to use the tag then why in the heck would you think that we would be able to get a deal done with him next offseason when he would again be a free agent?

Would you tag a player that very clearly doesn't want to play for your team? Because that is the only reason that a deal should not be done quickly and easily. He has an agent in place and the market is set with the Watt contract, it should be simple to hammer one out, unless he just doesn't want to play here.

The Lions have until March 2 to get a deal done IMO. That's the deadline for filing the tag designations. If he hasn't signed by then he simply doesn't want to play here and nothing is going to change that. Transition tag = maybe. Franchise tag = hell no

 

[RobBase]

So the question isn't a matter of if they can, it's why in the world would they?

Maybe to meet the contract Suh wants they have to tag him now, and work on signing him long term next off season when the cap is even higher, and other players have been restructured.

Mayhew said today that Suh wants to play here. No reason not to believe him.

 

[Naughtymax]

Mayhew and Suh and his agents would say that he wants to play here if it were the 30th team on his list of preferences. this is business 101. Actually, this is business 001. Paying attention to that is a waste of time.

The history of the franchise tag looks like about 50-50 (though lower if you don't include kickers) for re-signing. I cannot, however, find a single franchise player since 2007 who was franchised above the exclusive franchise level who then signed a long-term deal with the same team. Greg Hardy is an example of a player tagged at above the Exclusive Rights level who can leave this year.

I love the guy, but I guess the manager and analyst in me is coming out. Football is a team game and three studs and a bunch of scrubs can never win. I was a bit surprised, but since no team has ever won a Superbowl with its top 5 players accounting for even 40% of the cap, the only way the Lions would ever get a contender with 3 players consuming 50% of the cap is to have a bunch of young, underpaid studs.

I'd rather have Hardy, Iupati, and Fairley and use the extra money to extend Levy and Warford now while it'll be cheap and a good deal for both sides. If we're going all-in with Calvin, then sign Hardy, restructure Stafford and Calvin, and make your pitch to Suh once the extra talent is on board to sign a rich, but cap-friendly deal to give the team a 2-3 year window to win it all followed by Cap Hell.

 

[tpaulus_2]

To everyone saying its not possible to tag Suh, I've been hearing from more people close to the team that it definitely is possible, and even sounding likely.

Tim Twentyman:

"Let’s start with Suh. I’ve said for a while now that I think the team will re-sign him. The Lions think they have a roster to win now and they’re not going to let their top defensive player walk out of the door without exercising every resource available to them to keep him. If that means using the franchise tag on him, they’ve left that option open.

General manager Martin Mayhew even said Thursday the franchise tag wasn’t off the table for Suh. I’ve been saying that for a while now. The salary cap is expected to go up by at least $10 million and the Lions have some contracts on the books that are ripe for simple restructures. They have the money if they think he's that important.

I’ve heard Suh really likes playing for Caldwell. The emotion he showed after last week’s loss in Dallas proves he loves his defensive linemates even more. I think Suh is comfortable in Detroit, the Lions are going to pay him top dollar and he’ll be a Lion in 2015."

Like I said, if/when you hear that Suh has been tagged, please don't go on a rampage. Its a good thing.

Nobody is going to go on any rampage, and nobody here is "anti-Suh." Some of us are simply of the opinion that spending 25% of the cap on one player isn't a good idea. That leaves the other 75% to spread between 52 other players.

If tagging Suh is what it takes to keep him, I'm fine with that, but hopefully that's not how it unfolds, as it would really put the team in a bind. That seems pretty obvious to me, but I don't see why that means I'm going to go on a rampage if we do tag Suh...

 

[TwoCents22]

So the question isn't a matter of if they can, it's why in the world would they? If we were unable to get a deal done with him last summer, and fail again now, forcing us to use the tag then why in the heck would you think that we would be able to get a deal done with him next offseason when he would again be a free agent?

Would you tag a player that very clearly doesn't want to play for your team?

Yes. Why? Because what are the other options? With Suh, we are a contender IMO. That might be debatable to some, but what's not debatable is that we are definitely not a contender without him. We are in a rebuild mode most likely next year if he leaves. I wouldn't expect anything better than 8-8, and that's IF the offense gets a lot better. And imagine this same defense if the offense got better.

I've asked multiple times for someone to name another reason besides the number not to tag Suh. Who are we going to sign to keep us as contenders? The only reason people are saying not to tag him is "too much money, can't overpay, use the money to sign other free agents". Do you guys realize we overpay Megatron and Stafford? Why not move on from them? Let's eat their cap hits and move on from them under that logic. At least our best player, Suh, leads a productive unit. Why is not ok to overpay him $7 mil for 1 year, and then at worst case be clear and free?

Ftr, I agree $27 million is too much. No way am I advocating a 6 year deal at $27 per year. That's ridiculous. But since no one has floated real life options at free agency, I'll do it. Our holes, if Suh leaves, are replacing Sims at OG, and replacing Suh/Fairley at DT. The best DT free agent is Terrance Knighton. That's a downgrade, but cheaper.

At OG, an excellent option is Mike Iupati. He would probably cost more, but a definite upgrade. Best case, we sign both those guys, maybe get a Corner with the money to take over for Mathis. Byron Maxwell from Seattle is probably looking to get paid. Better than Mathis, who I'd rather keep at a discount, but since we're letting Suh leave to free up space, why not.

So we let Suh leave and we hit it out of the park free agency. Upgraded tremendously at OG, and slighly at CB. With Swanson/Warford/Iupati our interior OLine looks great. We're still weak at DT, but hey, they're cheaper. Now we head into the draft looking for a DT. But wait, I'm not a draft guru, but word is this draft is weak at DT. I've also heard it's strong at OG, but we already filled that spot. Maybe we get a RB? A 3rd WR? And a RT, and some depth at DT? Now our offense would be improved but a lot of speculation on defense. I'd still say maybe 9-7. 10-6 if our defense doesn't drop off too bad.

Here's the other option. We stretch the cap to tag Suh, cut who we need to to keep most of last years roster in tact, make no big free agent signings, and go into the draft needing a RG, where coincidentally this draft is strong.

Im definitely happy with either of those scenarios. What I wouldn't be happy with is letting Suh walk, plus striking out in free agency. Without Suh, our chances to contend hinge on Free Agency, the draft, AND our offense improving. I wouldn't consider that good odds to happen. But, just think. If we keep the roster the same, get some kind up upgrade at OG in the draft(hard not to upgrade over Sims), and our offense actually makes that progression everyone's hoping for. Paired with our defense in tact, I don't see how we couldn't be legit Superbowl contenders.

 

[RobBase]

I'd rather have Hardy, Iupati, and Fairley and use the extra money to extend Levy and Warford now while it'll be cheap and a good deal for both sides. If we're going all-in with Calvin, then sign Hardy, restructure Stafford and Calvin, and make your pitch to Suh once the extra talent is on board to sign a rich, but cap-friendly deal to give the team a 2-3 year window to win it all followed by Cap Hell.

Hardy?

Greg Hardy will stand trial on February 9 | ProFootballTalk

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Maybe to meet the contract Suh wants they have to tag him now, and work on signing him long term next off season when the cap is even higher, and other players have been restructured.

Mayhew said today that Suh wants to play here. No reason not to believe him.

You have to draw a line somewhere. What is to keep Suh from saying he has decided that he wants more after next season and then we still can't work out a deal?

It is bad business, VERY bad business, to let him enter the FA period without a deal already done. I want him back as much as you do but it's in the Lions best interest to walk away at that point if they don't have a deal.

How can the team go into FA with $27m of cap space that they don't know if it's available or not? The betterment of the team can't be held hostage by one guy who will have long since had a contract offer in front of him that will make him the leagues highest paid defensive player.

If he truly wants to be here, with the market value now very clearly defined, then getting a deal done soon should not be a problem at all. We should all know fairly soon.

 

[RobBase]

You have to draw a line somewhere. What is to keep Suh from saying he has decided that he wants more after next season and then we still can't work out a deal?

It is bad business, VERY bad business, to let him enter the FA period without a deal already done.

Disagree. If future cap increases and future contract restructuring are needed to secure Suh long term then that's the deal you agree to. Tag now then begin work on a long term deal doing what needs to be done to get there.

I'm not feeling the paranoia about him here that others feel. I believe he wants to play here no reason for me to think Mayhew is lying.

 

[RobBase]

Hardy?

Greg Hardy will stand trial on February 9 | ProFootballTalk

@ Max

You've been one of the strictest critics of Suh, claiming his rep makes him a liability and could possibly hurt him come negotiation time. Does Hardy not fall into the same or even worse category?

And how do you feel about Iuapati's growing list of injuries? Knee, arm, concussions...I think he was once a beast, now damaged goods (which is why the Niners are letting him go).

I would not give up Suh for these two. But that's me.