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Series Thread: MARINERS MINORS 2021

NWinAZ

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Well you just did @wazzu31's job for him lol.

I actually didn't realize this, but Kelenic has only played 27 combined games between AA and AAA in his career. Even Mike Trout played 91 games in AA. Tbh I'm surprised nobody brought this issue up (or I missed it, which I probably did) before Kelenic's call up.

I think his pitch recognition will improve as he gains experience. I mean shit even a journeyman has better stuff than a majority of the pitchers that Kelenic has faced thus far in his pro career.
Ya his quick call up was due to Mathers and Kelenic's pressure to be up. He wasn't ready, but maybe this shows him that he doesn't know everything about being ready that he thinks he did.
 

wazzu31

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I'll have to take your word on offense being bad in the league because to be frank I only watch the Mariners games. I can't really get into baseball games unless I have a team to root for. I find it strange that HRs have been up but offense overall has been down. Perhaps we're right that relying on the long ball might sound sexy but it's not the most successful way to generate offense.

It looks like they've been playing France at first. I really do wonder what that means for Evan White. You're right that if they thought he can play third he'd be getting playing experience there. Maybe he doesn't have the arm for it. If Ty France has a position he can play in the field, I think it makes sense as I do believe that DH should be reserved for guys who have an MLB bat but can't play a position at any decent level.

I think you're completely right about Evan White and Jarred Kelenic not being ready.


Kelenic and White have a combined 10 games of experience in AAA. It can't be a coincidence that they're both on that list with such little experience in the minors.

I do agree that Kelenic should be sent down, but the strange thing about his struggles is when I've watched him he has been making good contact and hitting the ball hard but has just been hitting it right at fielders. Kelenic's batting average on balls put on play is an astonishingly low .109. League average for balls put in play is around .300. I hate to invoke "bad luck," but Kelenic has for the most part been having good at bats and hitting the ball well, it's just that the ball has been going to the wrong places.
Depending on the definition of offense has it been down. We have a record amount of no hitters going on. I prefer runs and batting average as the factor of what offense means. Home runs is a great number, but I just don’t get how RBI’s is a stat that is hated unless that RBI is counted as a part of a home run. It is like in football now where the whole running backs don’t matter thing. Running backs may in analytics but scoring touchdowns is the name of the game whether it be having 10 rushing touchdowns and 50 passing or whether it be 30 and 30.

I have no idea what France’s future holds. But since new age guys have disregarded every single thing of baseball history maybe they will reinvent the wheel of saying guys can become DH’s right out of the minors.

I am the biggest Kelenic believer in the world which I will admit. The dude has the ego that I don’t think a slump in the bigs will kill him, but I also don’t think an ego check of demoting him will either. I personally have the same opinion that you have of he isn’t struggling because he doesn’t belong or is over matched. But I was at PT the other day and we got two guys there who played pro and told me he has a hole in his swing right now (which obviously I don’t see). If you are unlucky you can get over it, if you have something mechanical that isn’t something you can fix against big league pitchers. I don’t know, he and Julio are two guys I will bet my life on will be perennial all star caliber guys. Which anyone that knows me from here or the old CBS site know I do not say that lightly. I was the dude that said Seager would be better than Ackley (granted that is my only thing I staked a claim on though). I think those guys and the young pitchers are the future, and if they don’t pan out it blows for us fans because we have dealt with this rebuild.
 

NWinAZ

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NWinAZ

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wazzu31

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Well you just did @wazzu31's job for him lol.

I actually didn't realize this, but Kelenic has only played 27 combined games between AA and AAA in his career. Even Mike Trout played 91 games in AA. Tbh I'm surprised nobody brought this issue up (or I missed it, which I probably did) before Kelenic's call up.

I think his pitch recognition will improve as he gains experience. I mean shit even a journeyman has better stuff than a majority of the pitchers that Kelenic has faced thus far in his pro career.
Well Kelenic isn’t Trout in terms of tools. But Trout had it easy compared to Kelenic. The plan for 2020 for him was AA and AAA then probably a September call up. But instead he got stuck playing the same pitchers for months, which doesn’t really help in the long run. My fear with Kelenic is he getting sent down and into the cesspool of what they want offensive players to be. Kelenic isn’t a Kyle Seager throughout his HS and mini minor league career, he is an aggressive hitter, a line drive hitter. Essentially his chance for success is to be the best player he can be, not what new ages baseball “guys” try to teach them.

IMO while he is down there, he needs to play CF every game and bat 2nd. No leading off, no batting 3rd or 4th.
 

seattlefan75

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I dont want to hear anything about service time manipulation getting only 8 hits on 83 at bats he has no business being in the majors right now. He needs to go back to the minors and continue development at this rate it looks like he should have taken the money like Evan White did.
 

Destroydacre

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I dont want to hear anything about service time manipulation getting only 8 hits on 83 at bats he has no business being in the majors right now. He needs to go back to the minors and continue development at this rate it looks like he should have taken the money like Evan White did.
I agree he isn't ready now, though I still think his cactus league performance warranted making the team out of spring training. Who knows how things may have played out differently, if at all.
 

seattlefan75

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I agree he isn't ready now, though I still think his cactus league performance warranted making the team out of spring training. Who knows how things may have played out differently, if at all.
I feel like spring training isnt a good measuring tool for the regular season. I think its good for your young prospects to get a taste of playing around the big league roster and seeing what you have along with getting other players either warmed and ready for the season or practicing new techniques like batting stances, pitches, trying new position on defense. Players that are hitting well in spring training to me isnt indicative of how they will be in the regular season. Every year whether it is someone on the mariners or another team they killed it in spring training and come the regular season against serious competition they looked lost.
 

seahawksfan234

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Ya his quick call up was due to Mathers and Kelenic's pressure to be up. He wasn't ready, but maybe this shows him that he doesn't know everything about being ready that he thinks he did.
I know I'm just polishing a turd here, but perhaps his awful struggle in his first stint in the majors could be a good thing for him. He has never really faced any adversity and this could be a wake up call for him that no matter how much talent you have, in the major leagues you're going to face times where no matter how good you are there will be rough stretches.
 

seahawksfan234

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Depending on the definition of offense has it been down. We have a record amount of no hitters going on. I prefer runs and batting average as the factor of what offense means. Home runs is a great number, but I just don’t get how RBI’s is a stat that is hated unless that RBI is counted as a part of a home run. It is like in football now where the whole running backs don’t matter thing. Running backs may in analytics but scoring touchdowns is the name of the game whether it be having 10 rushing touchdowns and 50 passing or whether it be 30 and 30.

I have no idea what France’s future holds. But since new age guys have disregarded every single thing of baseball history maybe they will reinvent the wheel of saying guys can become DH’s right out of the minors.

I am the biggest Kelenic believer in the world which I will admit. The dude has the ego that I don’t think a slump in the bigs will kill him, but I also don’t think an ego check of demoting him will either. I personally have the same opinion that you have of he isn’t struggling because he doesn’t belong or is over matched. But I was at PT the other day and we got two guys there who played pro and told me he has a hole in his swing right now (which obviously I don’t see). If you are unlucky you can get over it, if you have something mechanical that isn’t something you can fix against big league pitchers. I don’t know, he and Julio are two guys I will bet my life on will be perennial all star caliber guys. Which anyone that knows me from here or the old CBS site know I do not say that lightly. I was the dude that said Seager would be better than Ackley (granted that is my only thing I staked a claim on though). I think those guys and the young pitchers are the future, and if they don’t pan out it blows for us fans because we have dealt with this rebuild.
Obviously the goal of the game is driving in runs, but the reason why RBIs is sort of a "hated" statistic is because it's more of a situational statistic that is heavily dependent on the players batting around you. You can be a great hitter in a poor lineup and have poor RBI numbers if the lineup around you isn't getting on base. Not arguing that RBIs as a stat are useless, just trying to shine some light on why some feel that it's not a great statistic to measure individual performance.

With France it looks like they're trying him at first. As I've said I think he's a legit hitter, maybe it's just me being an old soul but as I said I feel like DH should be reserved for guys who have a great bat but legitimately can't play a position in the field without substantially hurting the team. I don't see that with France.

That's an interesting insight about the hole in Kelenic's swing. I don't see it either, but honestly I don't have the best eye for that kind of stuff. It's funny you brought up the CBS days. I remember that I completely discounted Seager, and if I'm recalling correctly both you and @NWinAZ liked him a lot. I also believed that Mike Carp was a future perennial All-Star so perhaps everything I say should be discounted, lol.
 

NWinAZ

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I know I'm just polishing a turd here, but perhaps his awful struggle in his first stint in the majors could be a good thing for him. He has never really faced any adversity and this could be a wake up call for him that no matter how much talent you have, in the major leagues you're going to face times where no matter how good you are there will be rough stretches.
It will be good for him. I don't really understand all the SportsHoopla about the demotion. It is just a baseball thing and it won't have any impact on his career. Like you said, it might actually help. I just hated all the circumstance surrounding the callup. Just make it about baseball then nothing else matters, but that ain't the Mariners way.
 

seahawksfan234

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Well Kelenic isn’t Trout in terms of tools. But Trout had it easy compared to Kelenic. The plan for 2020 for him was AA and AAA then probably a September call up. But instead he got stuck playing the same pitchers for months, which doesn’t really help in the long run. My fear with Kelenic is he getting sent down and into the cesspool of what they want offensive players to be. Kelenic isn’t a Kyle Seager throughout his HS and mini minor league career, he is an aggressive hitter, a line drive hitter. Essentially his chance for success is to be the best player he can be, not what new ages baseball “guys” try to teach them.

IMO while he is down there, he needs to play CF every game and bat 2nd. No leading off, no batting 3rd or 4th.
Obviously I do like the analytics approach to a certain extent, but I agree that the new baseball "guys" try to hard to get creative and abandon the things that have made players successful for years. I feel like tweaking every little thing and micro-analyzing everything would really get into a player's head. Sometimes you get into a slump at no fault of your own and if you completely change your approach you could get away from what was working in the first place.
 

NWinAZ

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also believed that Mike Carp was a future perennial All-Star so perhaps everything I say should be discounted, lol.
There is a blast from the past. It just shows our luck. We got a Carp and our rivals got a Trout.
 

seahawksfan234

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It will be good for him. I don't really understand all the SportsHoopla about the demotion. It is just a baseball thing and it won't have any impact on his career. Like you said, it might actually help. I just hated all the circumstance surrounding the callup. Just make it about baseball then nothing else matters, but that ain't the Mariners way.
Honestly, I never really gave much consideration to the fact that Kelenic only had a grand total of 28 games above high-A. Hindsight being 20/20 I feel like an idiot for not recognizing that despite all the talent he has, he has never seen anything remotely close to what you see in the majors. Realistically the worst pitcher he probably faced all year in the majors is probably better than at least 95% of the pitchers he has faced up until this point in his career.
 

NWinAZ

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The funny thing to me about all the Kelenic stuff, why no outcry for Cal? The guy is of major league age, has a 18 game hit streak, and is a good defensive player at a position that really is available for the taking. It just all seems odd to me...and I get all the pacify the future king stuff, but don't forget about your knights either.
 

NWinAZ

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NWinAZ

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wazzu31

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Obviously the goal of the game is driving in runs, but the reason why RBIs is sort of a "hated" statistic is because it's more of a situational statistic that is heavily dependent on the players batting around you. You can be a great hitter in a poor lineup and have poor RBI numbers if the lineup around you isn't getting on base. Not arguing that RBIs as a stat are useless, just trying to shine some light on why some feel that it's not a great statistic to measure individual performance.

With France it looks like they're trying him at first. As I've said I think he's a legit hitter, maybe it's just me being an old soul but as I said I feel like DH should be reserved for guys who have a great bat but legitimately can't play a position in the field without substantially hurting the team. I don't see that with France.

That's an interesting insight about the hole in Kelenic's swing. I don't see it either, but honestly I don't have the best eye for that kind of stuff. It's funny you brought up the CBS days. I remember that I completely discounted Seager, and if I'm recalling correctly both you and @NWinAZ liked him a lot. I also believed that Mike Carp was a future perennial All-Star so perhaps everything I say should be discounted, lol.
The game is to drive in runs, an RBI is the exact same thing as a solo home run. The fact RBI is hated by analytics to me proves they do not understand baseball. An RBI means nothing because it combines skill and luck. But so does launch angle, is a guy really a home run hitter if he doesn’t hit any home runs against legitimate pitching. Let alone the RBI argument I don’t understand because they believe a single is a single except when that single is a bunt. A double is a double except when there is a walk or a single and the runner steals second. It is just cluster f of hypocrisy that has never led to a championship.

An interesting note on France is Raleigh has been playing 1B a few times with the Rainiers. I truly think 2B or 3B is his position if they make him play in the field. Raleigh’s offense has blown me away from what I thought his ceiling is. Without question he is the best defensive catcher in the organization but are trying him at 1B reminds me of the Seager/Ackley situation where Ackley was the 2B of the future but Seager was killing in the minors so they switched him Tacoma to 3B.

I don’t see it either, but I am bias and know his average sucked but he was squaring up balls. But he and his buddy played at a much higher level than I could have dreamed and told me he has a hole in his swing. But it was a positive hole, it was on breaking balls they said. If the hole is on an inside or outside fastball then there is no hope, but adjusting to major league caliber consistent breaking balls shows hope.

I was high on Seager just from seeing how much better he was than Ackley when they came and played a few weeks in Tacoma together. I hated Betencourt. I liked Mike Carp a lot as well and more than Smoak (obviously wrong). Carp just got hosed by the Mariners. But he is the definition of the problem with a player who can only play 1 position. He was a 1B. Was a massive failed experiment in the OF. Carp and Heredia are two guys I stumped for giving them to the everyday gig would’ve given them the confidence to be every day starters. Not all stars but the Mariners aren’t going to every come close to the All Stars they got in 2001. But neither of those guys amounted to anything. Though to give a pat on the back, Tyler O’Neill is doing a lot better than Marco and I was very vocal on how much I hated that trade. The Narvaez is another deal I hated.
 

wazzu31

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Obviously I do like the analytics approach to a certain extent, but I agree that the new baseball "guys" try to hard to get creative and abandon the things that have made players successful for years. I feel like tweaking every little thing and micro-analyzing everything would really get into a player's head. Sometimes you get into a slump at no fault of your own and if you completely change your approach you could get away from what was working in the first place.
I don’t mind analytics in the front office, which IMO is where it should be. And how to build a roster. But this adjusting pitchers and hitters into test studies on the field I find dumb. Launch angle is terrible, spin rate is terrible. Those two contradict each other. Instead of trying to develop the entire game of a player or a full repertoire for a pitcher. And your last part is true. For every Trout you have, you have countless ex Mariners that left and went onto have productive careers just because their confidence was fried for one reason or another. At least this is how it appears, I can’t think of a reason why you can fill out a damn near all star roster full of former Mariners under Jerry’s regime.
 
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