Let's make this clear

[WizardHawk]

I wrote this right after the super bowl and have been pasting it without insult IN SUPPORT OF SEATTLE COACHES, and all I get back is rant, name-calling, etc.
Here it is in cold, clean, logic. Can anyone counter this substantively:

26 seconds, 1 time out, 2nd down. There are three options:

A. Run Lynch twice and not even worry about running a play on a 4th down... a 4th down you'll never see because of time. We call this option the DUMB option.

B. Run Lynch on 2nd down, call Time Out, and then the Defense knows that you have to Pass on 3rd.

C. Throw on 2nd which saves Time Out and keeps options open on 3rd [run or pass].

=====================

All options run Lynch twice.
C. is the best option, which is what Carroll did.

Move that to 1:06 (I believe, might have been 1:09?). Someone have confirmation on when Lynch's run ended and how much time was left?

You can't do a pass/run/run starting at 26 when really the coaching staff COULD have ran it right away at maybe 40 by the time they got their full run team in and were set?

They ran the clock down on purpose, which given the outcome, appears to have been a bad decision if your claim that they needed to have time for 3 plays is true.

 

[gohusk]

I wrote this right after the super bowl and have been pasting it without insult IN SUPPORT OF SEATTLE COACHES, and all I get back is rant, name-calling, etc.
Here it is in cold, clean, logic. Can anyone counter this substantively:

26 seconds, 1 time out, 2nd down. There are three options:

A. Run Lynch twice and not even worry about running a play on a 4th down... a 4th down you'll never see because of time. We call this option the DUMB option.

B. Run Lynch on 2nd down, call Time Out, and then the Defense knows that you have to Pass on 3rd.

C. Throw on 2nd which saves Time Out and keeps options open on 3rd [run or pass].

=====================

All options run Lynch twice.
C. is the best option, which is what Carroll did.

Would you please just stop? The issue isn't passing. The issue is throwing it over the fucking middle like that on a god damn timing pattern and risk exactly what happened. It was the dumbest call ever.

 

[ElTexan]

Would you please just stop? The issue isn't passing. The issue is throwing it over the fucking middle like that on a god damn timing pattern and risk exactly what happened. It was the dumbest call ever.

ummm, the vast majority of people think the issue was not handing the ball to Lynch. What world are you living in?

 

[nefansince75]

Move that to 1:06 (I believe, might have been 1:09?). Someone have confirmation on when Lynch's run ended and how much time was left?

You can't do a pass/run/run starting at 26 when really the coaching staff COULD have ran it right away at maybe 40 by the time they got their full run team in and were set?

They ran the clock down on purpose, which given the outcome, appears to have been a bad decision if your claim that they needed to have time for 3 plays is true.

You nailed it, with one exception. Pete expected Bill to call timeout, and when Bill didn't he choked. It wasn't a big choke given nobody expected the interception, but by not running the play immediately the pass became a predictable necessity.

I don't think my opinion is completely biased. I don't think my team kicked your team's ass. I think it was a game that just simply had to have a winner and loser and the difference between one or the other is negligible other than the fact that the winner gets ALL the glory...

I'll state it again.... Great team, good season, very good two year run. Best of luck next year.

 

[{+}Mother-Marge{+}]

.....great game..!,.......seahawks/fans have nothing to be ashamed of..!,.....we pats fans can attest to that (18-1?!),.......you'll get over this and move-on with your lives,......and I'm sure you'll be there again many more times in the coming years,....!

 

[BHF]

Great breakdown of the play call by Kurt Warner...

The one glaring problem Warner is overlooking is that Browner is covering the outside receiver. You have to know that Browner is going to be in press coverage in a goal line defense. So we are going to ask Kearse to find a way to break press coverage (against an excellent press corner) and get to a spot to screen Butler on a bang/bang timing play. C'mon...terrible idea.

 

[ElTexan]

I tweeted mike and Mike, Greeny, and Golic what I wrote in this thread. Greeny straight up quotes my arguments almost word for word in the first minute of the first hour of the Feb 3 show. Check the podcast.

I get no credit at all.

What asses.

 

[WizardHawk]

You nailed it, with one exception. Pete expected Bill to call timeout, and when Bill didn't he choked. It wasn't a big choke given nobody expected the interception, but by not running the play immediately the pass became a predictable necessity.

I don't know if they expected your team to call TO's or not, but that's not why they went to the pass. They said they ran out 11 personnel (1RB, 1TE, 3WR's) with the intention to run from that grouping. When they saw NE go with their goal line 3 DB set they changed it up to a pass because of the match ups.

Given that BB had practiced for that very play and had the perfect defense in place because of that, it was a case of out coaching at the end, but let's be honest here and also say BB got away with not calling those TO's. If Wilson throws that ball on the jersey of Lockette and he catches it (not a given by any means) we are having a very different conversation about which HC gaffed.

 

[WizardHawk]

The one glaring problem Warner is overlooking is that Browner is covering the outside receiver. You have to know that Browner is going to be in press coverage in a goal line defense. So we are going to ask Kearse to find a way to break press coverage (against an excellent press corner) and get to a spot to screen Butler on a bang/bang timing play. C'mon...terrible idea.

Or, we could expect Lockette to do a better job with the route and/or have Wilson put the damned ball on his jersey instead of leading him inside. The ball was too high and to the left. Lower and to the right and one of only 3 things happens: Catch and TD, drop and 3rd down, or the slimmest of margins for him knocking it up in the air and the defense comes down with it.

I'll take Warner's word over the success rate of that play over any arm chair QB. He says is drop dead simple even if Browner doesn't get the rub. But I guess in your near HOF NFL career you had different experiences?

 

[gohusk]

ummm, the vast majority of people think the issue was not handing the ball to Lynch. What world are you living in?

The vast majority of the people here think that calling a high risk slant on a timing pattern from the 1 out of the fucking shotgun with the game on the line is stupid. You aren't providing any insight at all. That's what the discussion here, not sum dumbed down "calling a pass wasn't stupid" conversation. And if it does come to run/call THAT play then that is still the stupidest decision in Super Bowl history.

 

[BHF]

Or, we could expect Lockette to do a better job with the route and/or have Wilson put the damned ball on his jersey instead of leading him inside. The ball was too high and to the left. Lower and to the right and one of only 3 things happens: Catch and TD, drop and 3rd down, or the slimmest of margins for him knocking it up in the air and the defense comes down with it.

I'll take Warner's word over the success rate of that play over any arm chair QB. He says is drop dead simple even if Browner doesn't get the rub. But I guess in your near HOF NFL career you had different experiences?

There really does need to be a head pat smiley for you. The ad hominem is cute. (Go ahead and look that up, we've got all off season to debate.)

Here is the other problems with Warner's Infallible Argument.

1. If Wilson doesn't lead Lockette, Lockette is getting stopped short of the goal line. Which means that we burn a time out, forcing us to throw on third and fourth downs. Defeating the entire purpose of throwing on second down in the first place. Now if we assume that Lockette ran his route too shallow (certainly a possibility), Butler and the safety have an even shorter distance to the ball.

2. Geometry. I agree with you that the ball placement should have been lower. But could it have been? Almost certainly not. From the shotgun Wilson still needs to clear the line. At 5'10", even with an above average release point, that's a ridiculously tall order (pun unintended). Wilson's height isn't normally an issue, but it bit us in the ass in this situation.

 

[WizardHawk]

There really does need to be a head pat smiley for you. The ad hominem is cute. (Go ahead and look that up, we've got all off season to debate.)

Go fuck yourself. I said one thing I didn't get your reference to and now you want to treat me like a kid? Fuck off. No, really. Go fuck off.

Here is the other problems with Warner's Infallible Argument.

1. If Wilson doesn't lead Lockette, Lockette is getting stopped short of the goal line. Which means that we burn a time out, forcing us to throw on third and fourth downs. Defeating the entire purpose of throwing on second down in the first place. Now if we assume that Lockette ran his route too shallow (certainly a possibility), Butler and the safety have an even shorter distance to the ball.

2. Geometry. I agree with you that the ball placement should have been lower. But could it have been? Almost certainly not. From the shotgun Wilson still needs to clear the line. At 5'10", even with an above average release point, that's a ridiculously tall order (pun unintended). Wilson's height isn't normally an issue, but it bit us in the ass in this situation.

I'll again defer to people who played in the league and know a few things more than either of us. It's not like I'm quoting Stephen A Smith or anything (still can't believe he was quoting him). If you have issues with it take it up with him on twitter.

I'm not sure why some of you believe Wilson can do no wrong, but he's not perfect. He took blame himself and yet that's just him being classy and taking one for the team right? It's not like he honestly knows his throw could have been better.

Quit letting your blind hatred of Bevell cloud the entire world you see. Kearse could have caught that ball in the EZ and pretty much ended the game. The coaches could have managed their TO's better and not have been down to 1. The defense could have been what we expect them to be and stopped, or at least slowed down, Brady and his offense. There are more and more things to look at. All of which change things.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

.....great game..!,.......seahawks/fans have nothing to be ashamed of..!,.....we pats fans can attest to that (18-1?!),.......you'll get over this and move-on with your lives,......and I'm sure you'll be there again many more times in the coming years,....!

I know you guy's have been there.... Appreciate the comment man ... And between you and myself I was rooting for the Pats to go undefeated that year... I was STUNNED how that game ended as well... Giants pulled off and absolute miracle at the end of that game... I think this one hurts so bad because we were 1 yard away with Lynch frothing at the mouth to pound it in.... And we got cute ... DB made a great play though ... But not using Lynch there is gonna haunt me personally for a while... Stings...

 

[BHF]

Go fuck yourself. I said one thing I didn't get your reference to and now you want to treat me like a kid? Fuck off. No, really. Go fuck off.

Thicken that skin, Nancy. You want to start calling people stupid and pitching insults around? Okay. Expect to get it in return.

I'll again defer to people who played in the league and know a few things more than either of us. It's not like I'm quoting Stephen A Smith or anything (still can't believe he was quoting him). If you have issues with it take it up with him on twitter.

I'm not sure why some of you believe Wilson can do no wrong, but he's not perfect. He took blame himself and yet that's just him being classy and taking one for the team right? It's not like he honestly knows his throw could have been better.

Who said Wilson could do no wrong? Ultimately he threw the ball, and he should carry a little weight for that. However, he never should have been in that position in the first place. Bevell's responsibility is many orders of magnitude higher than Wilson's here.

Quit letting your blind hatred of Bevell cloud the entire world you see. Kearse could have caught that ball in the EZ and pretty much ended the game. The coaches could have managed their TO's better and not have been down to 1. The defense could have been what we expect them to be and stopped, or at least slowed down, Brady and his offense. There are more and more things to look at. All of which change things.

Calling Bevell an average OC who made a terrible call is "blind hatred"? Jesus. If that's blind hatred, what kind of nut swinging are you participating in?

 

[wood20ks]

Run Lynch......end of story......why anyone is arguing about this is beyond me.

 

[gohusk]

Run Lynch......end of story......why anyone is arguing about this is beyond me.

For whatever reason, some people here have a big emotional attachment to Bevell. He's average at best and easily replaceable. And when he was hired there was no thought of having to run an offence with such a unique skill set. Find a guy that knows how to handle that type of QB and have him work with Wilson.

 

[WizardHawk]

For whatever reason, some people here have a big emotional attachment to Bevell. He's average at best and easily replaceable. And when he was hired there was no thought of having to run an offence with such a unique skill set. Find a guy that knows how to handle that type of QB and have him work with Wilson.

For whatever reason, some people here can't read. I've never said Bevell was right. And yet that's all many of you can say in response to anything I do say.

How many times have I said I would have ran power and pushed lynch? And would have ran him 3 times.

The emotional reactions are entirely coming from the hate bevell at all costs crowd. Not my side.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Run Lynch......end of story......why anyone is arguing about this is beyond me.

Totally agree with you...

 

[nefansince75]

Go fuck yourself. I said one thing I didn't get your reference to and now you want to treat me like a kid? Fuck off. No, really. Go fuck off.


I'll again defer to people who played in the league and know a few things more than either of us. It's not like I'm quoting Stephen A Smith or anything (still can't believe he was quoting him). If you have issues with it take it up with him on twitter.

I'm not sure why some of you believe Wilson can do no wrong, but he's not perfect. He took blame himself and yet that's just him being classy and taking one for the team right? It's not like he honestly knows his throw could have been better.

Quit letting your blind hatred of Bevell cloud the entire world you see. Kearse could have caught that ball in the EZ and pretty much ended the game. The coaches could have managed their TO's better and not have been down to 1. The defense could have been what we expect them to be and stopped, or at least slowed down, Brady and his offense. There are more and more things to look at. All of which change things.

The problem with quoting people who have played in the league is you often get an agenda instead of an opinion. My opinion is simple: they expected the pass to go to a protected player and did not anticipate Browner holding fairly firm and Butler avoiding the rub. They should have, but didn't.

 

[gohusk]

For whatever reason, some people here can't read. I've never said Bevell was right. And yet that's all many of you can say in response to anything I do say.

How many times have I said I would have ran power and pushed lynch? And would have ran him 3 times.

The emotional reactions are entirely coming from the hate bevell at all costs crowd. Not my side.

No, at first the emotional responses came from disappointment. Then you kept throwing gas on the fire by calling people idiots and dunces who don't know what they're talking about. Just get over yourself dude. You think you have all the answers but you don't.