Kobe or Timmy...Best Player of their Generation?

[trojanfan12]

Any chance Duncan could be that reason the Spurs never missed the playoffs since he arrived?

The point that some are making is that Duncan has always had a playoff level lineup around him. We don't know if Timmy could drag the likes of Smush Parker and Kwame Brown to the playoffs because he never had to.

We do know that Kobe could drag the likes of Smush Parker and Kwame Brown to the playoffs because he did so twice.

Could Timmy have done that? Probably. Could he have done what Kobe couldn't and get that same lineup past the 1st round? Maybe. But we'll never know, because he never had to. That's not a knock on Timmy, but more praise for how well the Spurs have done in keeping a playoff caliber lineup together.

 

[trojanfan12]

Pop is an awesome coach, one of the greatest ever, but, he is also a coach without professional playing experience. Had he not landed in such an amazing situation with highly coachable stars, his career might have looked like Dell Harris.

The problem with that is that Del Harris had Shaq and Kobe and couldn't do any better than getting swept in the Conference finals. I think Pop likely figures out a way to do better than that.

To be fair to your point though. It's also possible that Pop may not have been able to handle Shaq and Kobe's ego's like Phil could which likely leads to him performing a lot like Del Harris.

 

[Flauge]

Kobe has had a much bigger impact on the game than Timmy.

Timmy has had the more consistent career as far as winning.

They each have 5 titles.

Kobe's have come in 3-5 year bursts. Timmy has spread his out over his entire career.

Timmy has 2 MVP's. Kobe has 1.

Both are certain first ballot HoF'ers.

Very, very close. I give Timmy a slight edge because the only 2 seasons in his career in which the Spurs didn't win at least 50 games were because they were strike shortened seasons.

My guess is though, outside of this board, Kobe would win most polls of this kind because he "moves the needle" a lot more than Timmy.

This.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

The idea that Timmy did not win without a stacked lineup is silly.
I will argue that the 2003 SPURS were almost a one man show. That was Duncan's greatest achievement,

Timmy was the only player on the team who made the all-star game and got even all-star consideration.
Very few team have been a one clear all-star winner of the Finals, with no secondary all-star.
Hakeem, Dirk, and Timmy come to mind...... those Pistons were different, they had no stars.

Robinson was on fumes.
Parker and Ginobili were nobodies at the time. Parker could not beat out Speedy Claxton.
Not only did Duncan drag that team to the #1 seed and NBA title, he won the league and finals MVP.

 

[trojanfan12]

The idea that Timmy did not win without a stacked lineup is silly.
I will argue that the 2003 SPURS were almost a one man show. That was Duncan's greatest achievement,

Timmy was the only player on the team who made the all-star game and got even all-star consideration.
Very few team have been a one clear all-star winner of the Finals, with no secondary all-star.
Hakeem, Dirk, and Timmy come to mind...... those Pistons were different, they had no stars.

Robinson was on fumes.
Parker and Ginobili were nobodies at the time. Parker could not beat out Speedy Claxton.
Not only did Duncan drag that team to the #1 seed and NBA title, he won the league and finals MVP.

Tony Parker played in all 82 games and averaged 15.5 points and 5.3 assists. Speedy Claxton played in 30 games and averaged 5.8 points and 2.5 assists.

Robinson, while clearly past his prime, still averaged 8.5 points and 8 rebounds per game.

That team also had Bruce Bowen, Steve Kerr, Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose. Not exactly an all-star lineup, but better than anything Kobe had in the first 3 years after Shaq left.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

This is just wrong on so many levels.

Pop is an awesome coach, one of the greatest ever, but, he is also a coach without professional playing experience. Had he not landed in such an amazing situation with highly coachable stars, his career might have looked like Dell Harris.

It does not matter how brilliant a basketball mind the coach has if he can't get the players to buy in. Robinson and Duncan were highly coachable and helped create the amazing culture in San Antonio. They did not care that Pop was not a former NBA player. They gave him their full attention from day 1 anyway. Just look at LeBron and David Blatt if you want to see how a star player can completely derail a coach if they don't buy in. Blatt could be just as knowledgable as Pop, but because LeBron is a dick, he never had a chance.

Kobe needed Phil a lot more than Duncan needed Pop. History has shown that no other coach has been able to get a Kobe led Laker time to serious contender status despite the fact that they had a couple squads talented enough to be there.

Are you saying Timmy would still have 5 titles if he didn't have Pop? Generational players are judged by their championships. Karl Malone for instance would undoubtedly be known as the greatest PF of all time if he had won 3 or 4 titles.

Kobe has had 10 different head coaches (four of them as interim coaches). Which means different playing styles and rotations. Tim has had one.

Overall, the Spurs have also been the better team in the last 10 years. Take Kobe and Tim away from those respective teams and the Spurs would still be the better team - Tim basically had the luck of being surrounded by better players in the last decade.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Here's a more interesting question?

Swap Kobe to the Spurs and Duncan to the Lakers and how many titles would they each have then? Hypothetically speaking of course.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

but better than anything Kobe had in the first 3 years after Shaq left.

Lamar Odom in 2005-2008 was better than any player on the 2003 Spurs lineup besides Duncan.

Don't think 2005 Ginobili....you have to focus on 2003 Ginobili.
Much like Andrew Bynum was not the same guy in 2007 that won titles in 2010/11 as a dominant force.

2003 SAN ANTONIO is criminally under-rated for being a one man show.
It was a bunch of nobodies (who would become somebody in the next few years) or faded old guys.

Duncan stands proudly with 1995 Akeem and 2011 Dirk.

 

[bksballer89]

Here's a more interesting question?

Swap Kobe to the Spurs and Duncan to the Lakers and how many titles would they each have then? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Kobe would have maybe 1 or at most 2. Timmy would have 3+

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Kobe would have maybe 1 or at most 2. Timmy would have 3+

Are you honestly saying that a combo of David Robinson and Kobe in the late 90s wouldn't be dominating the league? And then later having a Kobe-Ginobli-Paker team wouldn't win much either?

Put Kobe on those teams and he has more than 5 rings.

 

[bksballer89]

Are you honestly saying that a combo of David Robinson and Kobe in the late 90s wouldn't be dominating the league? And then later having a Kobe-Ginobli-Paker team wouldn't win much either?

Put Kobe on those teams and he has more than 5 rings.

You're delusional. Kobe teams with Shaq that won 3 rings were better than any of the Spurs teams.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

You're delusional. Kobe teams with Shaq that won 3 rings were better than any of the Spurs teams.

You're talking 3 years out of 20

 

[ChrisGar15]

Are you honestly saying that a combo of David Robinson and Kobe in the late 90s wouldn't be dominating the league? And then later having a Kobe-Ginobli-Paker team wouldn't win much either?

Put Kobe on those teams and he has more than 5 rings.

I'm not sure Tony Parker would be Tony Parker with Kobe on the same team.

Kobe's teams were at their best when Kobe controlled the ball and facilitated the offense. I'm not sure Pop would have been good with that.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

The LAKERS would have won every title from 1999-2004 with Shaq and Duncan
Duncan would have gladly been a rebounder and primary defender. He was unselfish.
He could have played seamlessly alongside Shaq, because Timmy was built to be a great teammate.

Shaq's unstoppable offensive force at his best
The rim protected by a young Duncan at his defensive and rebounding best

Kobe and the Spurs would not be able to get out of the first/second round from 1999-2004.
Ginobili and Parker would have been rendered useless with Kobe's style.
David Robinson would have been overwhelmed even in his prime....approaching 40, he would have no chance versus Duncan/Shaq.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Timmy for 2 reasons:

1. I hate the Lakers.

2. I hate Kobe more.

* at least I'm honest about it*

I get the argument that Tiiiiiiiiiiiimy is still a huge contributor on one of the best Teams in the NBA.

But, he is a player that doesn't depend on athleticism, throw his body around like the Kobe's, Iverson's, Vince Carter's, Wase's of the world.

So, obviously...his body has held up better.

I have them 1a and 1b.

Now, when Duncan gets his 6th?

 

[Heatles84]

Kobe.

Timmy wouldn't have had half the career he's had without Popovich all this time. Argue that Kobe had Phil, but he's also had Del Harris, Mike Brown, D'antoni and Byron.

If Kobe had Pop on the Lakers his entire career and he'd probably be fighting MJ for top spot in the GOAT discussions.

I agree to a point, and there's no clear cut front runner winner in this debate. However, Pop hadn't won anything until he landed Timmy with the no. 1 pick back in the 90's. Kobe had to deal with some corches. But at the end of the day both are at 5 titles. Duncan also has a pretty good shot at number 6 though, so long as he can get by some team in Golden St.

Still though, I'm thankful that I got to watch two all-time greats for the totality of their careers.

 

[trojanfan12]

Lamar Odom in 2005-2008 was better than any player on the 2003 Spurs lineup besides Duncan.

 

[trojanfan12]

@Horns. Timmy is winning this poll 23-1.

And he's trying to "defend" Timmy with a bunch what if's that haven't and won't happen.

 

[Nosferatu]

That's what you got out of that post?

And you called his post stupid?

Wow.

Hey Lakers fan, calm down and read it again if that's not what you get it, read it again if it's still not what you get from it, learn to read...

 

[trojanfan12]

Hey Lakers fan, calm down and read it again if that's not what you get it, read it again if it's still not what you get from it, learn to read...

If what you got out of that post was him saying that Timmy was better because he had better players around him, it is you who needs to learn to read.

Timmy has won more consistently than Kobe throughout his career because he's had a better lineup around him for several of those years. That's just a fact. In non-strike shortened seasons, Timmy's Spurs teams have never won fewer than 50 games. One player isn't responsible for that, you need a decent roster.

Additionally, Timmy, Manu and Parker all make each other better. They all move the ball well and Timmy's inside and mid-range games open up the outside and driving lanes for Manu and Parker. Manu and Parkers outside games and ability to drive the lanes, helps Timmy's inside and mid-range games.

No one is saying that having a better lineup around him is why he's a better player. We don't know how Timmy would have done with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown because he didn't have to play with them.