Kershaw should be the leading NL Cy Young candidate

[Villain]

Just picking on you because it is fun... But i do think Greinke is the clear CY, despite the fact the other 2 deserve it too...

Why do you think that?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Why do you think that?

My new stat RPG, WHIP and QS%

I love QS% because it shows consistency... 29 per 31 starts is insane, and better than 28 per 32 by arrieta, and 27 for 32 by Kershaw...

Really all Kershaw is better than Greinke with is strikeouts... But at the end of the day an out is an out, especially when the player with less strike outs has a better ERA and WHIP...

I do agree that ERA is a little over-rated.. But lets look at this Greinke only had 2 more runs than earned runs compared to 7 by kershaw and Arrieta... what this shows me is that Greinke was better AFTER the error as well... which is a great thing...

 

[Villain]

Quality starts...? Really? And then your own made up stat?

And WHIP? The three of them are separated by 4 one hundredths. 0.85 for Grienke, 0.88 for Arrieta, and 0.89 for Kershaw. That's basically a push. C'mon.

And you keep saying Kershaw's only got him by strikeouts and that is absolutely false: Kershaw should be the leading NL Cy Young candidate

Greinke is bringing up the back of the pack on most of those.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Quality starts...? Really? And then your own made up stat that calsnowskier already found the flaws in.

And WHIP? The three of there are seperated by 4 one hundredths. 0.85 for Grienke, 0.88 for Arrieta, and 0.89 for Kershaw. That's basically a push. C'mon.

And you keep saying Kershaw's only got him by strikeouts and that is absolutely false: Kershaw should be the leading NL Cy Young candidate

Greinke is bringing up the back of the pack on most of those.

no, he did not find the flaw in it, he used the wrong formula...

 

[Villain]

no, he did not find the flaw in it, he used the wrong formula...

I edited that line out. Please address the other points.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But anyway... QS is a great stat if you look at it properly... forget that 6 innings 3 runs is OK at best.. but if you have a QS then you give your team a better opportunity to win... that is just fact... so the more you do the better... and having a high percent of them just shows consistency... 29 of his 31 games he gave his team a BETTER chance to win... compared to Kershaw's 27 of 32.... that is 5 of 32 games where he did not give his team a BETTER chance to win...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and again, i am not knocking on any of the 3, they all are deserving... But when one player is better in all the PRODUCTION stats, how can you pick the player who may have the better advanced stats???

Nobody is saying Greinke is a better pitcher than Kershaw, only that he had a better season...

 

[Villain]

I have to copy and paste from earlier.


K% - 1st
BB% - 6th (Arrieta 9th, Greinke 14th)
K-BB% - 1st (Arrieta 9th, Greinke 14th)
Total Strikeouts - 1st
Total Innings - 1st (6 more IP than Arrieta, same amount of games started)
CG - T-1st (4, same as Arrieta, Buerle, Bumgarner, and Kluber)
ShO - T-1st (3, same as Arrieta)
SIERA - 1st (Arrieta is 6th, Greinke is 14th)
ERA - 3rd (Grienke 1st, Arrieta 2nd - but you knew that one already)
FIP - 1st (Arrieta 2nd, Grienke 6th)


Those ones. Tell my why they don't matter as much as your stat and a negligible difference in WHIP.

QS%. I have literally never looked that up or ever seen someone use that before today. What is the QS% for each of them?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have to copy and paste from earlier.


K% - 1st
BB% - 6th (Arrieta 9th, Greinke 14th)
K-BB% - 1st (Arrieta 9th, Greinke 14th)
Total Strikeouts - 1st
Total Innings - 1st (6 more IP than Arrieta, same amount of games started)
CG - T-1st (4, same as Arrieta, Buerle, Bumgarner, and Kluber)
ShO - T-1st (3, same as Arrieta)
SIERA - 1st (Arrieta is 6th, Greinke is 14th)
ERA - 3rd (Grienke 1st, Arrieta 2nd - but you knew that one already)
FIP - 1st (Arrieta 2nd, Grienke 6th)


Those ones. Tell my why they don't matter as much as your stat and a negligible difference in WHIP.

QS%. I have literally never looked that up or ever seen someone use that before today. What is the QS% for each of them?

k% and Total strikeouts are the same stat
ShO and CG are too similar
BB%- who cares about if the other player has a better WHIP
k-BB- another of the same stat you want to show we get it Kershaw strikes players out


So basically you are saying Kershaw strikes out the most players and has pitched most innings... and used 12 stats to show this...

Also we are only comparing Kershaw to Arrieta and Greinke, so anytiem Greinke and Arietta are better it should not be included here...

And again, QS% shows consistency... its not just about the end of season stats, it is also important to look at consistency and HOW OFTEN the pitcher was good... that is what QS% is for...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes, kershaw has pitched 15 more innings than Greinke, but do you realize how awful Greinke would have to pitch in those 15 innings to have equal PRODUCTION stats to Kershaw... Kershaw had 15 more Earned runs, 20 more runs, 17 more hits and 3 more walks....

so that would be an ER per inning, and over a Walk+ hit per innning... that is way below his season numbers...

 

[Villain]

k% and Total strikeouts are the same stat

Still far superior to anyone.

ShO and CG are too similar

So what? Still better than Greinke.

BB%- who cares about if the other player has a better WHIP

They have almost the exact same WHIP, come on man. Zero point zero four.

k-BB- another of the same stat you want to show we get it Kershaw strikes players out

Wrong, it shows control of the strike zone. Striking out a ton of guys AND walking a ton of guys is no bueno. The differential is extremely important.

So basically you are saying Kershaw strikes out the most players and has pitched most innings... and used 12 stats to show this...

Also we are only comparing Kershaw to Arrieta and Greinke, so anytiem Greinke and Arietta are better it should not be included here...

Throw them up for the discussion. So far the stats you've shown are not convincing at all.

And again, QS% shows consistency... its not just about the end of season stats, it is also important to look at consistency and HOW OFTEN the pitcher was good... that is what QS% is for...

I asked you for the QS% for each of the three top candidates. You already told me why you like it.


=======

Also, Kershaw has the best batted-ball velocity of any pitcher in baseball. That's not important to you? Greinke's ERA has been outpacing his peripherals all season.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Still far superior to anyone.



So what? Still better than Greinke.


They have almost the exact same WHIP, come on man. Zero point zero four.



Wrong, it shows control of the strike zone. Striking out a ton of guys AND walking a ton of guys is no bueno. The differential is extremely important.



Throw them up for the discussion. So far the stats you've shown are not convincing at all.


I asked you for the QS% for each of the three top candidates. You already told me why you like it.


=======

Also, Kershaw has the best batted-ball velocity of any pitcher in baseball. That's not important to you? Greinke's ERA has been outpacing his peripherals all season.

who cares about peripherals... we are not predicting what will be, we have RAW DATA to prove that Greinke has been better, he allowed less men on base and has allowed less runs and has done it more consistently-that is all that is important... That can not be argued on...

All peripherals are good for is predicting the future... if a player has better peripherals then they will like maintain their stats better, or their peripherals show that they should be pitching better so they likely will later on... But how can you ignore ACTUAL PRODUCTION stats???

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Really all Kershaw is better than Greinke with is strikeouts... But at the end of the day an out is an out, especially when the player with less strike outs has a better ERA and WHIP...

From a practical standpoint, you're right. However Cy Young voters don't see it that way.

Should be interesting to see who gets the award this year. Close race.

I'm leaning toward Price in the AL?

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

For what it's worth, Rob Neyer's Cy Young Predictor currently has it as 1) Arrieta, 2) Greinke, 3) Kershaw.

Obviously, he doesn't make the decision, but he's accurately predicted 75% of the last 20 Cy Young winners.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

From a practical standpoint, you're right. However Cy Young voters don't see it that way.

Should be interesting to see who gets the award this year. Close race.

I'm leaning toward Price in the AL?

Definitely not on Price... I think it is a slam dunk for Dallas...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Definitely not on Price... I think it is a slam dunk for Dallas...

Uhhhhhh...

Pitcher A - 32 GP / 220.1 IP / 18 W / 5 L / 225 K / 2.45 ERA
Pitcher B - 32 GP / 226.0 IP / 19 W / 8 L / 213 K / 2.47 ERA

Explain to me how "definitely not" and "slam dunk" belong in a discussion of these two pitchers' Cy Young chances.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Dallas has MORE innings with Less Runs(not earned runs), Hits and only 2 more walks...

Dallas has 2 more QS in the same amount of starts, that shows that he was more consistent...

So again we have dallas who let Less people on base, allowed less runs, in MORE innings, and did this more consistently...

But I will admit that slam dunk was an over exaggeration... just like making a splash!!!

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Dallas has MORE innings

Six whole innings more. That's half an out per start.

with Less Runs(not earned runs)

Are you really comparing the pitchers' unearned runs in a CY debate?

less Hits and only 2 more walks...

11 whole fewer hits. That's .07 hits per IP between these two.

Player A - 1.08 WHIP
Player B - 1.01 WHIP

Dallas has 2 more QS in the same amount of starts, that shows that he was more consistent...

DK gave up more than three runs in six starts, DP only five. DK gave up 5 or more runs in three starts, DP only two. Neither pitcher was significantly more consistent than the other.

So again we have dallas who let Less people on base, allowed less runs, in MORE innings, and did this more consistently...

None of which significantly so, if at all. It's also worth noting that historically, these metrics you've listed, aren't generally considered too much by the Cy Young voters.

So, again, please Explain to me how "definitely not" and "slam dunk" belong in a discussion of these two pitchers' Cy Young chances.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

So, again, please Explain to me how "definitely not" and "slam dunk" belong in a discussion of these two pitchers' Cy Young chances.

Or, you could just stop the madness, be reasonable, and say, "I think Kuechel will win a tight decision."

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Six whole innings more. That's half an out per start.



Are you really comparing the pitchers' unearned runs in a CY debate?



11 whole fewer hits. That's .07 hits per IP between these two.

Player A - 1.08 WHIP
Player B - 1.01 WHIP



DK gave up more than three runs in six starts, DP only five. DK gave up 5 or more runs in three starts, DP only two. Neither pitcher was significantly more consistent than the other.



None of which significantly so, if at all. It's also worth noting that historically, these metrics you've listed, aren't generally considered too much by the Cy Young voters.

So, again, please Explain to me how "definitely not" and "slam dunk" belong in a discussion of these two pitchers' Cy Young chances.

I did admit that I was exaggerating about it being a slam dunk... But Dallas still has more innings(even if close), less men on base and less runs scored... That is ultimately what baseball is all about isn't it??

Now if you want to base it on stats voters look at, Dallas has a better ERA, more wins, better WHIP... All he doesn't have is the strike outs... But again, if a player has a better WHIP and ERA, then how important is it that they have less strike outs??

And yes, I do look at Runs over earned runs... Having so many Runs more than Earned runs is not a good thing, and really shows that that after an error the pitcher has a hard time getting back... Arent you tired of a pitcher who gets 2 outs, an error is made and then the next batter hits a HR... How does the HR not affect a players ERA?? I kind of wish there was a stat that showed BA after an error...