Keenan Allen

[Ray_Dogg]

@wilnerhotline: More Allen: “He didn’t interview great at the combine. People thought he was big-timing them. And now this."

 

[Ray_Dogg]

@wilnerhotline: Last Allen: "He was probably in the 15-25 range before. But now he’s probably late second round.”

 

[NinerSickness]

@wilnerhotline: Last Allen: "He was probably in the 15-25 range before. But now he’s probably late second round.”

And I get crap for talking about how important the "overrated" combine and individual workouts are.

...I know he failed a drug test, but that wouldn't push him to the late 2nd if he ran a 4.4 flat & good burst / agility numbers.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

And I get crap for talking about how important the "overrated" combine and individual workouts are.

...I know he failed a drug test, but that wouldn't push him to the late 2nd if he ran a 4.4 flat & good burst / agility numbers.

Well, you're looking at a combination of things here: speed/athleticism concerns, injury concerns, character concerns, and drug concerns. That's a lot to deal with.

The rule I generally like to follow is that the combine can hurt a player, but it can't help him all that much. If a guy doesn't have the tape, I wouldn't bump him much based on a great workout. If he's got the tape, but his combine is awful, I would drop him some.

 

[NinerSickness]

Well, you're looking at a combination of things here: speed/athleticism concerns, injury concerns, character concerns, and drug concerns. That's a lot to deal with.

That's true, but the injury concerns were already known. The character concerns & the drug concerns are the same thing because this is the first off-field problem he's had (I've never heard a bad thing said about him before now).

The rule I generally like to follow is that the combine can hurt a player, but it can't help him all that much. If a guy doesn't have the tape, I wouldn't bump him much based on a great workout. If he's got the tape, but his combine is awful, I would drop him some.

I don't agree with that. Stephon Gilmore was considered a 2nd rounder (even late 2nd round) by most before the combine, and he went 10th overall. Jason Pierre-Paul is another example of a guy whose workouts vaulted him much higher.

Mario Williams is another guy who was pushed ahead of the pack based largely on workouts. He was always considered a top 10 guy, but his workouts pushed him to #1. Ronnie Brown is another whose workouts vaulted him. Same with Carlos Rogers & Shawne Merriman that year.

I don't think Cornelius Washington would be considered a late 2nd rounder to early 3rd rounder if not for his obscene combine (it was known that he was a great athlete, but he proved that he was maybe THE best athlete in the draft at the combine).

Donte Stallworth, Calvin Pace to an extent, Dunta Robinson, Ahmad Carroll, DHB was valuted to 7th overall, Javon Walker, Laron Landry was always considered a 1st round safety, but his workouts pushed him all the way up to 6th overall...

I still hold the the combine is an enormous part of many different factors that go into evaluating a player. And even if you take everything into consideration, a lot of times it just comes down to luck because there is no formula. Even the worst GMs make great picks (Terry Donahue picked Eric Heitmann in the 7th round, Sopoaga in the 4th), and the best GMs make terrible ones (Kyle Boller).

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't agree with that. Stephon Gilmore was considered a 2nd rounder (even late 2nd round) by most before the combine, and he went 10th overall. Jason Pierre-Paul is another example of a guy whose workouts vaulted him much higher.

Mario Williams is another guy who was pushed ahead of the pack based largely on workouts. He was always considered a top 10 guy, but his workouts pushed him to #1. Ronnie Brown is another whose workouts vaulted him. Same with Carlos Rogers & Shawne Merriman that year.



Donte Stallworth, Calvin Pace to an extent, Dunta Robinson, Ahmad Carroll, DHB was valuted to 7th overall, Javon Walker, Laron Landry was always considered a 1st round safety, but his workouts pushed him all the way up to 6th overall...

How many of the guys you list there actually lived up to their draft spot, though? Mario Williams and JPP I'll give you. Too early to conclusively say on Gilmore. Every other guy you mention fell short of expectations for the spot where they were picked. Some of them well short.

 

[NinerSickness]

How many of the guys you list there actually lived up to their draft spot, though? Mario Williams and JPP I'll give you. Too early to conclusively say on Gilmore. Every other guy you mention fell short of expectations for the spot where they were picked. Some of them well short.

Too early to tell with Stephon Gilmore. Shawne Merriman easily lived up to his draft spot (although it was steroids that made him good). Ronnie Brown could've been great if not for injury problems. Hard to argue against Dunta Robinson with the contract he got from Atlanta.

Laron Landry just got a huge deal too, so apparently the NFL likes him more than football fans do.

These are just guys whose combines pushed them up way higher than they would've gone before the combine, but these are just first round picks. There are countless others who were pushed up in the later rounds too. The point is the NFL pays close attention to workout numbers for a reason. People in the media like to try to sound smart and talk about how useless the combine is & say dumbass cliche things like, "the film doesn't lie." Wrong. You don't know what you're talking about Freddie Coleman, Grant Napier, etc. The film does lie. You could see some WR burn some DB on film all day and say, "Wow! He's amazing!" However, when that DB gets invited to the combine and runs a 4.9 in the 40, smart GMs will understand that the WR was effectively pulling a Kramer-VS-little-kids play & disregard it.

The combine is the equalizer. It takes all the other factors out of play and simply shows how good of an athlete a player is. It's obviously not the only thing that matters; that's why olympic sprinters don't just waltz onto a football field and become probowlers. But the people who say workout numbers don't matter have NO FREEKING CLUE what they're talking about.

And I'm not talking about you Crimson; you seem like a rational guy who understands you don't look at just one factor, but you don't completely ignore others. A lot of people on sports radio don't get this & should stop trying to talk about the NFL draft like they have a single thought that's insightful. Just interview Todd McShay & don't try to comment.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Too early to tell with Stephon Gilmore. Shawne Merriman easily lived up to his draft spot (although it was steroids that made him good). Ronnie Brown could've been great if not for injury problems. Hard to argue against Dunta Robinson with the contract he got from Atlanta.

Laron Landry just got a huge deal too, so apparently the NFL likes him more than football fans do.

These are just guys whose combines pushed them up way higher than they would've gone before the combine, but these are just first round picks. There are countless others who were pushed up in the later rounds too. The point is the NFL pays close attention to workout numbers for a reason. People in the media like to try to sound smart and talk about how useless the combine is & say dumbass cliche things like, "the film doesn't lie." Wrong. You don't know what you're talking about Freddie Coleman, Grant Napier, etc. The film does lie. You could see some WR burn some DB on film all day and say, "Wow! He's amazing!" However, when that DB gets invited to the combine and runs a 4.9 in the 40, smart GMs will understand that the WR was effectively pulling a Kramer-VS-little-kids play & disregard it.

The combine is the equalizer. It takes all the other factors out of play and simply shows how good of an athlete a player is. It's obviously not the only thing that matters; that's why olympic sprinters don't just waltz onto a football field and become probowlers. But the people who say workout numbers don't matter have NO FREEKING CLUE what they're talking about.

And I'm not talking about you Crimson; you seem like a rational guy who understands you don't look at just one factor, but you don't completely ignore others. A lot of people on sports radio don't get this & should stop trying to talk about the NFL draft like they have a single thought that's insightful. Just interview Todd McShay & don't try to comment.

Merriman is close, but I think he ultimately fell short. Particularly because he completely tanked once he got off the 'roids.

I'm not disputing that combine results cause people to climb in the draft. I'm saying that if I were making the decisions, I wouldn't let them influence me in a positive direction all that much, in large part due to some of the guys you've mentioned. This does not hold as much for the later rounds. After say the third, I'm fine with taking a chance on a physical specimen.

 

[NinerSickness]

Well, I think the 'roid issue with Merriman proves my point. The chargers didn't know he was a 'roid monkey, and they were going based on his athleticism; and they were right. It wasn't their fault that he wasn't a great athlete without them...

I wouldn't let them influence me in a positive direction all that much, in large part due to some of the guys you've mentioned. This does not hold as much for the later rounds. After say the third, I'm fine with taking a chance on a physical specimen.

So I'm assuming you would be upset if the Niners took Eric Reid at 31 or 34? He's a little bit raw (and young), but he's one of the best athletes of any safety prospects in the draft. And before the combine, people saw him as a 2nd / 3rd round pick.

I think, despite the fact that I don't want any part of him, Margus Hunt is going to prove that GMs don't necessarily think that way.

 

[BINGO]

Markus Wheaton - WR - Beavers

Oregon State WR Markus Wheaton is higher than Cal WR Keenan Allen on some teams' boards, per Tony Pauline.

"Wheaton does not possess the size of Patton or Swope yet his playing speed is slightly better," Pauline writes. The receiver recently visited the Panthers and Cowboys. A team could get a very good player in the early part of the second-round if he lasts that long.
Source: TFY Draft Insider

Apr 17 - 10:47 AM

 

[imac_21]

How many of the guys you list there actually lived up to their draft spot, though? Mario Williams and JPP I'll give you. Too early to conclusively say on Gilmore. Every other guy you mention fell short of expectations for the spot where they were picked. Some of them well short.

I took your comment about the combine hurting, but not helping players in regards to their draft status. If that's the case, then how many of them lived up to their draft spot is irrelevant in regards to whether the combine helped them or not. If their status improved after the combine, then it helped them.

If you're talking about whether or not the combine helps or hurts them in terms of their ability to play football, I don't think it affects them at all. I would be very surprised if any player in the history of the league had his ability as a football player change (for better or worse) based on his combine workouts (save a guy that blew out a knee or something).

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Well, I think the 'roid issue with Merriman proves my point. The chargers didn't know he was a 'roid monkey, and they were going based on his athleticism; and they were right. It wasn't their fault that he wasn't a great athlete without them...



So I'm assuming you would be upset if the Niners took Eric Reid at 31 or 34? He's a little bit raw (and young), but he's one of the best athletes of any safety prospects in the draft. And before the combine, people saw him as a 2nd / 3rd round pick.

I think, despite the fact that I don't want any part of him, Margus Hunt is going to prove that GMs don't necessarily think that way.

I don't have a strong opinion on Reid, though I was hearing him mentioned as a first round pick prior to the combine.

I think Margus Hunt will show that measurables aren't always what they're cracked up to be.

 

[NinerSickness]

I think Margus Hunt will show that measurables aren't always what they're cracked up to be.

Although I disagree with the premise, I agree about Hunt. He's proof that I'm not just looking at measurables. I don't want any part of that guy.

 

[BINGO]

Although I disagree with the premise, I agree about Hunt. He's proof that I'm not just looking at measurables. I don't want any part of that guy.

Not even in the 3rd round?

 

[BINGO]

Keenan Allen - WR - Golden Bears

The NFL Combine confirmed to ESPN's Adam Schefter that Cal WR Keenan Allen's recent medical re-check was related to a right ankle injury.

Schefter previously noted Allen posted an odd drug test when higher than normal water levels were found in his system. Allen has dealt with a PCL injury since November, but this ankle injury goes back to the Spring of 2012 when the receiver underwent surgery. There's a real chance the Cal product lasts until the middle part of the second day.
Source: Adam Schefter on Twitter

Apr 18 - 8:33 AM

 

[NinerSickness]

Not even in the 3rd round?

Yes, I'd take a chance on him in round 3. But he's expected to be a 1st round pick or so. That would be a monumental reach. I'd pass.

 

[NinerSickness]

By the way, when I said Keenen Allen could drop to th 3rd or 4th round after his workout, I got some grief for it. I believe the word "terrible" was used.

You know who you are.

 

[EKmane]

By the way, when I said Keenen Allen could drop to th 3rd or 4th round after his workout, I got some grief for it. I believe the word "terrible" was used.

You know who you are.

I made a thread for you, what else do you want?

 

[NinerSickness]

I didn't see that. An apology wasn't necessary, but I appreciate the sentiment.

 

[Yoshi]

I don't know, this whole things sounds fishy in regards to "large amounts of water" in Keenan's system. I'm not necessarily vouching for the guy despite our Cal connections, but there wasn't a lot of specifics involved in his drug testing. Granted, drinking water can flush out drugs and toxins from your system, but those facilitating drug tests could have checked Keenan's creatine levels to really see if his urine has been purposely diluted (there's a test involving creatine and blood urea nitrogen, otherwise known as BUN, to investigate this matter further). There was no mention of that and coming from a medical point of view, this whole story seems rather vague. Not to mention, who is the "unnamed" source?