Kaepernick sat for national anthem

[Manster7588]

Why is the Canadian flag upside down?

Marines?

 

[JMR]

The fatal shootings by law enforcement issue has been in the news way too much for way too long. Wanting details from Kaep (or anyone else) is just another way to deflect the real conversation.

This exactly why we cannot get anywhere. "Hey, we don't need to show facts -- just look at the news!!" When the news is not even an accurate, complete account of the 4 or 5 major headline cases (all black victims, of course) that we talk about each year, let alone what is truly going across the whole country and not just Ferguson or Chicago or Baltimore. Not enough facts, just sensationalism, appeals to emotion, and competition for ratings. But the people who want to discuss facts are deflecting the conversation? Gotta be kidding me.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

Heh.

And wasn't that guy who changed the lyrics in the Canadian anthem in that trio? who sang at the baseball all star game a Yank?

Lots of respect there too....

 

[shopson67]

This exactly why we cannot get anywhere. "Hey, we don't need to show facts -- just look at the news!!" When the news is not even an accurate, complete account of the 4 or 5 major headline cases (all black victims, of course) that we talk about each year, let alone what is truly going across the whole country and not just Ferguson or Chicago or Baltimore. Not enough facts, just sensationalism, appeals to emotion, and competition for ratings. But the people who want to discuss facts are deflecting the conversation? Gotta be kidding me.

Nobody is discussing the facts. Everyone knows what the topic is, but many are still acting that since he didn't point out specific cases that his stance is invalid. That's deflection 101.

If someone said they wouldn't support the Cowboys anymore until they cut back on signing and/or keeping miscreants, would you wait for specific examples there as well, or would you know that the fan is referring to all of the suspended players on the current roster?

 

[shopson67]

Here's a list of the 37 police officers who have been killed by gunfire in 2016 thus far.

The Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP)

and that is pertinent to this discussion how? Were they killed by unarmed people of color?

 

[Money]

and that is pertinent to this discussion how? Were they killed by unarmed people of color?

If you can't figure out the relevance, then there's really nothing else for me to say to you.

 

[Broncos6482]

Nobody is discussing the facts. Everyone knows what the topic is, but many are still acting that since he didn't point out specific cases that his stance is invalid. That's deflection 101.

If someone said they wouldn't support the Cowboys anymore until they cut back on signing and/or keeping miscreants, would you wait for specific examples there as well, or would you know that the fan is referring to all of the suspended players on the current roster?

That's not deflection, it's asking to prove there's a real problem. Again, look at the case of Michael Brown. Here's two different ways to look at it.

1. Cop kills unarmed black kid.
2. Cop shoots criminal who beat him and tried to take his gun.

Do you see how those paint very different pictures? It's not enough to say that police shoot unarmed black people, you must look at the details and see if it's justified or not. Only then can you determine if it's a pattern, and if so what can be done about it. And once we actually start looking at the details, it's extremely hard to create a compelling case that police are targeting and killing unarmed black people intentionally.

Now, that doesn't mean that every unarmed black person that was killed was killed justifiably, or that the authorities always handled the case correctly. And THOSE SPECIFIC CASES SHOULD BE HIGHLIGHTED AND PROTESTED. But this general idea that police are out targeting black people to shoot and kill them? It's just not borne out by the evidence.

 

[shopson67]

That's not deflection, it's asking to prove there's a real problem. Again, look at the case of Michael Brown. Here's two different ways to look at it.

1. Cop kills unarmed black kid.
2. Cop shoots criminal who beat him and tried to take his gun.

Do you see how those paint very different pictures? It's not enough to say that police shoot unarmed black people, you must look at the details and see if it's justified or not. Only then can you determine if it's a pattern, and if so what can be done about it. And once we actually start looking at the details, it's extremely hard to create a compelling case that police are targeting and killing unarmed black people intentionally.

Now, that doesn't mean that every unarmed black person that was killed was killed justifiably, or that the authorities always handled the case correctly. And THOSE SPECIFIC CASES SHOULD BE HIGHLIGHTED AND PROTESTED. But this general idea that police are out targeting black people to shoot and kill them? It's just not borne out by the evidence.

Shooting unarmed people and killing unarmed people are two different things. You're choosing a convenient example to support your argument instead of looking at the larger picture. Nobody is saying that law enforcement is targeting and killing unarmed black people intentionally, Mr Straw Man. There is a lack of concern for wellbeing when people of color are involved. Whether that is institutionalized police being unnecessarily afraid of people of color, being racist, or whatever other reason, it's a situation that must be addressed and must improve.

 

[shopson67]

If you can't figure out the relevance, then there's really nothing else for me to say to you.

I agree. Stick to the discussion at hand.

 

[Broncos6482]

Shooting unarmed people and killing unarmed people are two different things. You're choosing a convenient example to support your argument instead of looking at the larger picture. Nobody is saying that law enforcement is targeting and killing unarmed black people intentionally, Mr Straw Man. There is a lack of concern for wellbeing when people of color are involved. Whether that is institutionalized police being unnecessarily afraid of people of color, being racist, or whatever other reason, it's a situation that must be addressed and must improve.

I disagree with that completely. I think most people just don't care when it's a criminal involved.

And I'm not trying to create a straw man, but really that just reinforces my point: when you speak in generalities it's easier to misunderstand and dismiss an argument. Here's what Kaepernick said, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

So to me that sounds like he's saying that police are out murdering black people and getting away with it. The line about "bodies in the street" is especially evocative of Michael Brown. So I guess I would ask, how exactly does this country oppress black people? Who are these people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? Are they isolated incidences, or is there a systematic problem? If they're isolated they have to be addressed individually. If it's systematic, then yeah let's work on that problem. Without those kind of details, it's impossible to know, so any stand Kaepernick is taking is useless (this doesn't even address the fact that he's criticizing oppression in America while wearing a Fidel Castro t-shirt, but I'm certain the irony of that is completely lost on him).

The bottom line is, giving me a list of black people killed by police is meaningless, especially when that list doesn't differentiate between those that were killed justifiably and those that probably weren't.

 

[Money]

Shooting unarmed people and killing unarmed people are two different things. You're choosing a convenient example to support your argument instead of looking at the larger picture. Nobody is saying that law enforcement is targeting and killing unarmed black people intentionally, Mr Straw Man. There is a lack of concern for wellbeing when people of color are involved. Whether that is institutionalized police being unnecessarily afraid of people of color, being racist, or whatever other reason, it's a situation that must be addressed and must improve.

Just curious...is this a situation that must be addressed and must improve?

 

[Cyder]

Data shows that 93 percent of black homicide victims are killed by other blacks.

Kaepernick needs to protest that.

That stat is meaningless. Te vast majority of homicides are from members of the same ethnic groups. I think the number is 86% for white people.
What is a meaningful stat is that black males between the ages of 18-40 are about 5% or 6% of the population and commit about 50% of the violent crime in this country.
In NYC blacks are around 20% of the population but are responsible for over 90% of shooters in shootings where there is a witness.
The amount of violent crime in black communities is out of control but that doesn't fit the racist narrative of BLM. All BLM has managed to get accomplished is the Ferguson effect in St Louis, Baltimore and Chicago and those cities are practically drowning in the blood of black people being shot by other black people. But if you point that out you're a racist

 

[shopson67]

I disagree with that completely. I think most people just don't care when it's a criminal involved.

And I'm not trying to create a straw man, but really that just reinforces my point: when you speak in generalities it's easier to misunderstand and dismiss an argument. Here's what Kaepernick said, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

So to me that sounds like he's saying that police are out murdering black people and getting away with it. The line about "bodies in the street" is especially evocative of Michael Brown. So I guess I would ask, how exactly does this country oppress black people? Who are these people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? Are they isolated incidences, or is there a systematic problem? If they're isolated they have to be addressed individually. If it's systematic, then yeah let's work on that problem. Without those kind of details, it's impossible to know, so any stand Kaepernick is taking is useless (this doesn't even address the fact that he's criticizing oppression in America while wearing a Fidel Castro t-shirt, but I'm certain the irony of that is completely lost on him).

The bottom line is, giving me a list of black people killed by police is meaningless, especially when that list doesn't differentiate between those that were killed justifiably and those that probably weren't.

Criminal or not, we're talking about the use of lethal force on unarmed citizens.

I think you're adding your own context to what he said. In my opinion, he's saying that the legal system (including law enforcement) is not adequately punishing individuals that do not value the lives of people of color equally with those of white people.

I could care less about Kaepernick or what he wears; my concern is that the urgency of the cause is being lost.

As far as your issues with the list, what is a justification for killing an unarmed man, guilty or not? Law enforcement is supposed capture criminals, not execute them.

 

[shopson67]

That stat is meaningless. Te vast majority of homicides are from members of the same ethnic groups. I think the number is 86% for white people.
What is a meaningful stat is that black males between the ages of 18-40 are about 5% or 6% of the population and commit about 50% of the violent crime in this country.
In NYC blacks are around 20% of the population but are responsible for over 90% of shooters in shootings where there is a witness.
The amount of violent crime in black communities is out of control but that doesn't fit the racist narrative of BLM. All BLM has managed to get accomplished is the Ferguson effect in St Louis, Baltimore and Chicago and those cities are practically drowning in the blood of black people being shot by other black people. But if you point that out you're a racist

It isn't one problem or the other; both are issues. Black on black crime existing and being a problem does not lift the burden on the police to act correctly when confronted with difficult choices. Shooting to kill should always be a last resort, but that seems to be lost on a segment of the police and they needed to be weeded out.

 

[shopson67]

Just curious...is this a situation that must be addressed and must improve?

Of course it is, but that is not the topic at hand. More than one situation that needs to be addressed can exist, right? Compare those stats to the population %s and they won't be as misleading as that raw data is, btw. I would guess that a greater % of crimes against whites are reported than crimes against blacks as well.

How many unarmed whites were the victims of police violence compared to unarmed people of color? How many more went unreported?

 

[Money]

Of course it is

Good...glad to hear.

 

[Broncos6482]

Criminal or not, we're talking about the use of lethal force on unarmed citizens.

I think you're adding your own context to what he said. In my opinion, he's saying that the legal system (including law enforcement) is not adequately punishing individuals that do not value the lives of people of color equally with those of white people.

I could care less about Kaepernick or what he wears; my concern is that the urgency of the cause is being lost.

As far as your issues with the list, what is a justification for killing an unarmed man, guilty or not? Law enforcement is supposed capture criminals, not execute them.

Ok, let's unpack that, shall we? What evidence do we have that the legal system isn't adequately punishing people that do not value the lives of people of color equally with those of white people? Again, a list of unarmed black people that were killed is not evidence.

As for the justification of killing an unarmed man, we have such a thing called justifiable homicide. That is, sometimes it's legal in the eyes of the law to kill someone. Yes, even in the cases where the person killed was unarmed.

See, the unarmed thing doesn't really mean anything. Someone doesn't have to be armed to be a threat on another's life. That's why it takes times to unpack these things. We can't just be throwing cops into jail every time they shoot someone in the line of duty. You have to take time to evaluate the evidence and determine whether or not it was justified. That's why these cops often get paid leave until it's sorted out.

 

[Broncos6482]

Of course it is, but that is not the topic at hand. More than one situation that needs to be addressed can exist, right? Compare those stats to the population %s and they won't be as misleading as that raw data is, btw. I would guess that a greater % of crimes against whites are reported than crimes against blacks as well.

How many unarmed whites were the victims of police violence compared to unarmed people of color? How many more went unreported?

I suggest you read this. It talks about the demographic breakdown of those killed by police from May 2013 to April 2015.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

Looks like he'll be sitting tonight in San D where it's Military Service night (or something like that....)

Could be interesting....

 

[Broncos6482]

Looks like he'll be sitting tonight in San D where it's Military Service night (or something like that....)

Could be interesting....

That's sure to go over well.