Is Lebron a Dynasty Unto Himself?

[TrustMeIamRight]

They traded away a future of 40 win seasons for a chance to win now with LeBron and AD. Would have been incredibly stupid not to.

Yes, because as you can see -- Ball and Ingram haven't been getting better each year.

Ingram went from 8 to 12 to 18 to 24 PPG and he is only 22.

Ball FINALLY changed that janky shooting stroke and he made a monster jump on his outside shooting -- going from 31% in LA to 38% in NO.

Does LA have a better chance in the short term to compete for a title? Yes. But what they gave up is crazy. If Lebron bounces in two years or jumps to the next team to chase a ring -- LA is going to be left with a roster worse than what AD had in NO, with no draft capital to help.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

while I agree they should have made the deal, you really believe if they held onto those guys they would not have been better than 40 wins this year (assuming Lebron stayed healthy, and a full season).

You can see how much Ingram and Ball have progressed from just last year.
Ball looks like an actual legit player now. No longer can you just drop off him and let him shoot from the outside.
Ingram will be an all-star for years to come.

LA would have won in the 50-55 range would be my guess with those guys and Lebron.

TLance is acting like LA traded away veterans to NO for Davis. These kids are 21-22 years old. They haven't even hit their prime and they will only get better.

 

[wazzu31]

He’s only a dynasty if what he says is true and brings basketball back to Seattle.

 

[tlance]

Yes, because as you can see -- Ball and Ingram haven't been getting better each year.

Ingram went from 8 to 12 to 18 to 24 PPG and he is only 22.

Ball FINALLY changed that janky shooting stroke and he made a monster jump on his outside shooting -- going from 31% in LA to 38% in NO.

Does LA have a better chance in the short term to compete for a title? Yes. But what they gave up is crazy. If Lebron bounces in two years or jumps to the next team to chase a ring -- LA is going to be left with a roster worse than what AD had in NO, with no draft capital to help.

And the Pelicans didn’t win many games until Zion came back.

 

[tlance]

while I agree they should have made the deal, you really believe if they held onto those guys they would not have been better than 40 wins this year (assuming Lebron stayed healthy, and a full season).

No, they probably win 50.

But they wouldn’t be contenders.

And you can’t underestimate the damage that was done with the AD trade rumors last year. Certainly possible the chemistry and trust was broken beyond repair.

 

[tlance]

You can see how much Ingram and Ball have progressed from just last year.
Ball looks like an actual legit player now. No longer can you just drop off him and let him shoot from the outside.
Ingram will be an all-star for years to come.

LA would have won in the 50-55 range would be my guess with those guys and Lebron.

TLance is acting like LA traded away veterans to NO for Davis. These kids are 21-22 years old. They haven't even hit their prime and they will only get better.

Yes. They will get better.

None are even close to being on a superstar trajectory though. Lonzo is a great fit with Zion, yet still realistically mostly an average PG at best. And Ingram is a really nice player. Not a cornerstone type player.

Hart is a solid role player. Dime a dozen.

Only way this move isn’t a massive win for the Lakers is if AD doesn’t resign. And I believe he will.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Yes. They will get better.

None are even close to being on a superstar trajectory though. Lonzo is a great fit with Zion, yet still realistically mostly an average PG at best. And Ingram is a really nice player. Not a cornerstone type player.

Hart is a solid role player. Dime a dozen.

Only way this move isn’t a massive win for the Lakers is if AD doesn’t resign. And I believe he will.

The window to compete for a title is small with Lebron. So in that sense, it was a great move.

Only way I would call it a massive win is if they can find to pair with AD once Lebron isn't there to compete in the West. AD hasn't even won a playoff series before in 6 or 7 years in the NBA.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Only LeBron haters keep leaning on his Finals record. And if Finals are the only way to judge a players career then all of this nonsense has to also be correct, right?


Jason 'white chocolate' Williams > John Stockton

Ty Lue as a coach > Jerry Sloan

Draymond Green > Charles Barkley

Mark Madsen > Patrick Ewing

Tristan Thompson > Karl Malone

Robert Horry (7 rings) > MJ


Now see how silly it is to use Finals record?

Good post, but at some point along the way...how you performed on the largest stage has to matter.

Everyone that really followed those series knows that Robert Horry was a bit player on those teams, but if you're trying to make an argument on solely on rings...he's the ultimate example of why it's not the best measuring stick.

 

[trojanfan12]

Only way I would call it a massive win is if they can find to pair with AD once Lebron isn't there to compete in the West. AD hasn't even won a playoff series before in 6 or 7 years in the NBA.

AD is young, just entering his prime and is a top 5 player in the league. Finding other top players to join him shouldn't be much of an issue.

If the Lakers had just kept the kids along with Lebron, as @tlance pointed out, they'd win about 50 games, but they aren't getting to the finals. Especially with the Clips getting Kawhi and PG.

That would have been a complete waste of whatever time Lebron has left.

You can make the case that perhaps they shouldn't have signed Lebron in the first place. Just let the kids develop and hope that 1 turned out to be a superstar or that they could improve enough that one would want to join them.

Then, in 2-3 more years, they might be contenders.

You wouldn't get a whole lot of push back from Lakers fans either. There are many of us on here that were really on the fence over signing Lebron.

But once they signed Lebron, the only thing that made sense was to do whatever they had to do to bring in at least 1 other superstar and try to win right now.

 

[trojanfan12]

Good post, but at some point along the way...how you performed on the largest stage has to matter.

Everyone that really followed those series knows that Robert Horry was a bit player on those teams, but if you're trying to make an argument on solely on rings...he's the ultimate example of why it's not the best measuring stick.

Exactly.

The thing with ranking all time great players is that the statistical margins and "accolades" tend to be very, very close.

So titles/finals records become a tiebreaker of sorts.

 

[msgkings322]

The window to compete for a title is small with Lebron. So in that sense, it was a great move.

Only way I would call it a massive win is if they can find to pair with AD once Lebron isn't there to compete in the West. AD hasn't even won a playoff series before in 6 or 7 years in the NBA.

Are you saying they should not have made the trade?

 

[dtgold88]

And the Pelicans didn’t win many games until Zion came back.

Not sure anyone is saying a team can go far with those guys as the #1. But they can with Zion.....and if in LA they had that Lebron fellow who is pretty good.

Possible they are bad fits with him based on last year? sure....but also possible they have simply improved dramatically and would be very good with a healthy Lebron. as good as they are with Davis? I'd say no.

 

[dtgold88]

No, they probably win 50.

But they wouldn’t be contenders.

And you can’t underestimate the damage that was done with the AD trade rumors last year. Certainly possible the chemistry and trust was broken beyond repair.

No doubt about that....but perhaps they could be adults and get past that. agree 50 or so wins. Idea they'd only win 40 seemed off to me.

 

[dtgold88]

The window to compete for a title is small with Lebron. So in that sense, it was a great move.

Only way I would call it a massive win is if they can find to pair with AD once Lebron isn't there to compete in the West. AD hasn't even won a playoff series before in 6 or 7 years in the NBA.

Somewhat agree....IF they win a title with AD it's a win, no matter what else happens.

I liken it to my thoughts on Wiggins for Love deal......win a title with love and wiggins could become Kobe and it's still a win for Cavs.

 

[dtgold88]

AD is young, just entering his prime and is a top 5 player in the league. Finding other top players to join him shouldn't be much of an issue.

If the Lakers had just kept the kids along with Lebron, as @tlance pointed out, they'd win about 50 games, but they aren't getting to the finals. Especially with the Clips getting Kawhi and PG.

That would have been a complete waste of whatever time Lebron has left.

You can make the case that perhaps they shouldn't have signed Lebron in the first place. Just let the kids develop and hope that 1 turned out to be a superstar or that they could improve enough that one would want to join them.

Then, in 2-3 more years, they might be contenders.

You wouldn't get a whole lot of push back from Lakers fans either. There are many of us on here that were really on the fence over signing Lebron.

But once they signed Lebron, the only thing that made sense was to do whatever they had to do to bring in at least 1 other superstar and try to win right now.

while I do think I agree, I have to admit Ball and Ingram look to be much better than I thought they'd be. I do believe they have a better chance to go further with AD but wouldn't rule out a Finals trip.

Also had the #4 pick they could have used. Nit sure who they could have taken that would have helped most.

 

[tlance]

Not sure anyone is saying a team can go far with those guys as the #1. But they can with Zion.....and if in LA they had that Lebron fellow who is pretty good.

Possible they are bad fits with him based on last year? sure....but also possible they have simply improved dramatically and would be very good with a healthy Lebron. as good as they are with Davis? I'd say no.

He said the Lakers gave away their future, which is a bukalis level stupid take.

Their “future” was mediocre with what they had. Especially when those guys had to start getting paid. So they turned those players into a second superstar to pair with LeBron.

Now they have a very bright short term future and an uncertain long term future. Before the trade it was just a mediocre future.

So yeah. They gave away their future for a better one.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

AD is young, just entering his prime and is a top 5 player in the league. Finding other top players to join him shouldn't be much of an issue.

If the Lakers had just kept the kids along with Lebron, as @tlance pointed out, they'd win about 50 games, but they aren't getting to the finals. Especially with the Clips getting Kawhi and PG.

That would have been a complete waste of whatever time Lebron has left.

You can make the case that perhaps they shouldn't have signed Lebron in the first place. Just let the kids develop and hope that 1 turned out to be a superstar or that they could improve enough that one would want to join them.

Then, in 2-3 more years, they might be contenders.

You wouldn't get a whole lot of push back from Lakers fans either. There are many of us on here that were really on the fence over signing Lebron.

But once they signed Lebron, the only thing that made sense was to do whatever they had to do to bring in at least 1 other superstar and try to win right now.

This I can agree with. Adding AD is a great pickup, but getting others to join him will be extremely difficult. This past FA class was stacked with superstars and LA wasn't able to sign any.
LA will have to hope everything lines up for them to sign a FA when the time comes, as they do not have the assets to trade for another one. So it is tough to say -- they will just get another superstar to join LA when Lebron is done.

I understand why they made the trade. But I think they will regret it in a few years, when Lebron slows down, especially if they sign him to more years after his 4 year deal is done.

And this corona virus happened at about the worst possible time. No chance the NBA finishes the regular season and has a full playoff. Hell -- they may not have an NBA champ this year at all, depending on how long the quarantine lasts. I think this year is the best chance for the Lakers with no GSW to deal with and Houston essentially playing no one over 6'6" or whatever.
The one team they will battle with in the West is the Clippers.
I can see the NBA going to 3 game series for the playoffs or even, god forbid, one game elimination, just so they can crown a champ. So nothing about that helps the Lakers or any team.
They are even talking about doing the playoffs in one city to eliminate travel, so there'd be no home court advantage.

 

[dtgold88]

He said the Lakers gave away their future, which is a bukalis level stupid take.

Their “future” was mediocre with what they had. Especially when those guys had to start getting paid. So they turned those players into a second superstar to pair with LeBron.

Now they have a very bright short term future and an uncertain long term future. Before the trade it was just a mediocre future.

So yeah. They gave away their future for a better one.

No disagreement....why I think they were right to make the deal.

 

[trojanfan12]

This I can agree with. Adding AD is a great pickup, but getting others to join him will be extremely difficult. This past FA class was stacked with superstars and LA wasn't able to sign any.
LA will have to hope everything lines up for them to sign a FA when the time comes, as they do not have the assets to trade for another one. So it is tough to say -- they will just get another superstar to join LA when Lebron is done.

Actually, it should be less of a problem to get a top level FA.

While it is false to say that no top FA wanted to play with Lebron, it is also false to say that they all did.

Playing alongside Lebron is similar to playing along side Kobe. If your teams wins, most of the credit is going to go to them. But if your team loses, much of the blame is going to fall on you.

That's not Lebron's fault and it wasn't Kobe's. It's the media and fans that set the narrative. But it does mean that a player must be willing to accept that and not all of them are.

With AD, that's not likely to be an issue.

There is definitely a certain amount of "hope" involved. As you said, they have to hope that they can sign the right guys when Lebron leaves.

However, there is also "hope" involved no matter what. If you have a lot of draft picks, you hope you get guys who will become very good to great players. If you have a lot of young guys like the Lakers did, you hope they can develop into very good to great players.

Having a superstar player, especially a young one like AD, always means there is potential for a bright future.

In the Lakers case, for example, if for some reason they were unable to sign another top level FA, they could look at trading AD for a bunch of assets to start a rebuild.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

He said the Lakers gave away their future, which is a bukalis level stupid take.

Their “future” was mediocre with what they had. Especially when those guys had to start getting paid. So they turned those players into a second superstar to pair with LeBron.

Now they have a very bright short term future and an uncertain long term future. Before the trade it was just a mediocre future.

So yeah. They gave away their future for a better one.

You traded kids. They just turned 22. I don't count Hart, as I see him as more of a role player.
If someone told you Lonzo Ball would shoot almost 40% from 3 after his two years in LA -- would you have believed it? Or that Brandon Ingram would be in the top 15 in scoring? They are 22 years old.
You are judging them as if you expect every 19, 20, 21 year old to walk into the NBA playing against grown men and just dominate.
The very short term -- as in two more years -- it is a great deal for LA. In 2022, Lebron will be 38 year old. Age catches up to everyone. What does LA do in 2022? Sign Lebron into his 40's? They won't be trading for anyone, as they have no one to trade and no draft picks to trade with.