Is Lebron a Dynasty Unto Himself?

[tlance]

so you saw Giannis being an MVP talent after year 3? You saw James Harden being an MVP talent after year 3? You saw Bradley Beal being a 30 ppg guy after year 3? You saw Damian Lilliard being a 30 ppg guy who can carry a team on his back after year 3? Did you see Steph Curry being a MVP talent? Or Thompson or Green? Should I go on?

When you are drafting kids at 19, 20 years old -- many are still growing into their bodies and it will take more than a few years to add the strength, maturity and skills necessary to become stars.

Personally, I cannot stand Lonzo Ball. Everything about the kid annoys me. So if I were a Lakers fan -- I'd be happy just to get rid of him and his dad. I was shocked when I saw him play with NO. He looked like a completely different player with a complete different shooting stroke. I still wanted to smack the smug look off his face, but he looked like the player they thought he'd be when he was drafted.

First of all, I will start with the first 2 players you mentioned. Giannis and Harden.

A lot of people saw Giannis as a player with superstar potential after his 3rd year. His athleticsim kept of the page and he only needed to refine his skills.

Harden wasn’t an obvious MVP candidate, but it was obvious that he was going to be a high level all star level player as soon as he got traded to Houston (after year 3). His per minute scoring was very impressive considering he teamed with Russ and KD and was the 3rd wheel.

Curry was amazingly efficient his first 2 years and got hurt in year 3. His concern was health.

Lillard was already a 2 time all star by his 3rd year.

and none of the other players you mentioned are even in the ballpark of being superstars.

So yes. Each 1 of those was projectable based on how they performed their first 3 years.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

First of all, I will start with the first 2 players you mentioned. Giannis and Harden.

A lot of people saw Giannis as a player with superstar potential after his 3rd year. His athleticsim kept of the page and he only needed to refine his skills.

Harden wasn’t an obvious MVP candidate, but it was obvious that he was going to be a high level all star level player as soon as he got traded to Houston (after year 3). His per minute scoring was very impressive considering he teamed with Russ and KD and was the 3rd wheel.

Curry was amazingly efficient his first 2 years and got hurt in year 3. His concern was health.

Lillard was already a 2 time all star by his 3rd year.

and none of the other players you mentioned are even in the ballpark of being superstars.

So yes. Each 1 of those was projectable based on how they performed their first 3 years.

Explain what a superstar is to you, since you seem to be cherry picking stats to say why one player was going to be superstar (as in efficiency for curry -- with zero all star appearances), while Lilliard shot 40% from the floor, but he was going to be a superstar because he was named to an all star team?
And if Bradley Beal -- who is 2nd in the NBA in scoring behind Harden isn't a superstar -- who else isn't?
Klay Thompson is a 5 time all star and twice named to an all-NBA team, as well as an all defense team.

Im just trying to figure out what parameters you are using to decide a player is a superstar

 

[tlance]

Explain what a superstar is to you, since you seem to be cherry picking stats to say why one player was going to be superstar (as in efficiency for curry -- with zero all star appearances), while Lilliard shot 40% from the floor, but he was going to be a superstar because he was named to an all star team?
And if Bradley Beal -- who is 2nd in the NBA in scoring behind Harden isn't a superstar -- who else isn't?
Klay Thompson is a 5 time all star and twice named to an all-NBA team, as well as an all defense team.

Im just trying to figure out what parameters you are using to decide a player is a superstar

A superstar is an elite player. The best of the best. These guys can carry mariginal talent to the playoffs, and be the best player on a contender.

There are usually less than 5 in the league at a given time. Now, I would say there might be as many as 7 or 8.

Beal is a nice player. But far from superstar level. And I am a Wizard fan.

And of those guys, Curry was obviously the hardest to project because he didn’t have the obvious physical tools the others did. But he also had ridiculous numbers his first 2 years. Guards almost never score as much as he did shooting as efficiently as he did.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

A superstar is an elite player. The best of the best. These guys can carry mariginal talent to the playoffs, and be the best player on a contender.

There are usually less than 5 in the league at a given time. Now, I would say there might be as many as 7 or 8.

Beal is a nice player. But far from superstar level. And I am a Wizard fan.

And of those guys, Curry was obviously the hardest to project because he didn’t have the obvious physical tools the others did. But he also had ridiculous numbers his first 2 years. Guards almost never score as much as he did shooting as efficiently as he did.

So is Anthony Davis not a superstar? He is in year, what, 7? He has never won a playoff series.

I'm curious who the superstars are if there are only 7 or 8.

 

[tlance]

So is Anthony Davis not a superstar? He is in year, what, 7? He has never won a playoff series.

I'm curious who the superstars are if there are only 7 or 8.

Yes he has.

 

[tlance]

So is Anthony Davis not a superstar? He is in year, what, 7? He has never won a playoff series.

I'm curious who the superstars are if there are only 7 or 8.

But the obvious ones:

LeBron
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Davis
Luka
Durant

Then you can make a case for a couple more like Lillard. It is one of those things. You know it when you see it.

 

[lebron23james]

But the obvious ones:

LeBron
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Davis
Luka
Durant

Then you can make a case for a couple more like Lillard. It is one of those things. You know it when you see it.

Sounds like you buy into the hype of many players, vs who actually is a superstar...Basically what the media tells you is a superstar

You have a weird set of rules, exceptions...For example Half the players you list have never won anything, and you din't even put Kawhi on the list for an "obvious" superstar, you know the guy who won a championship last year lmao

 

[tlance]

Sounds like you buy into the hype of many players, vs who actually is a superstar...Basically what the media tells you is a superstar

You have a weird set of rules, exceptions...For example Half the players you list have never won anything, and you din't even put Kawhi on the list for an "obvious" superstar, you know the guy who won a championship last year lmao

Kawhi is an obvious superstar.

Knew I left somebody out.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

But the obvious ones:

LeBron
Giannis
Harden
Curry
Davis
Luka
Durant

Then you can make a case for a couple more like Lillard. It is one of those things. You know it when you see it.

Kawhi Leonard?!? How does he not make the list? He has not only won 2 NBA championships, including one with Toronto. He was the MVP of both.

Paul George was 1st team All-NBA and 1st team All-NBA defense last year. Yet not a superstar?!?

Davis has won a single playoff series and he is a superstar?!?

Harden is a tremendous offensive player, but absolutely atrocious on defense.

If you are going to base it on numbers -- how is Russell Westbrook not a superstar? He avg a triple double for an entire season.

 

[tlance]

Kawhi Leonard?!? How does he not make the list? He has not only won 2 NBA championships, including one with Toronto. He was the MVP of both.

Paul George was 1st team All-NBA and 1st team All-NBA defense last year. Yet not a superstar?!?

Davis has won a single playoff series and he is a superstar?!?

Harden is a tremendous offensive player, but absolutely atrocious on defense.

If you are going to base it on numbers -- how is Russell Westbrook not a superstar? He avg a triple double for an entire season.

Kawhi is definitely a superstar.

Paul George is not a superstar. He had a great year in 2019 though. Westbrook was for sure, but he is on the fringe now with Lillard, PG13, Embiid, etc.

And I am not basing it on numbers only. Impact on winning as the #1 guy.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Kawhi is definitely a superstar.

Paul George is not a superstar. He had a great year in 2019 though. Westbrook was for sure, but he is on the fringe now with Lillard, PG13, Embiid, etc.

And I am not basing it on numbers only. Impact on winning as the #1 guy.

Winning? What has Luka, Harden, Anthony Davis and Giannis won? What has Durant won without joining up with a team who had already won a title without him?

And how is Paul George not a superstar, when he is a 6 time all star, 5 time all NBA pick (with a 1st team all NBA last year) and a 4 time all NBA defensive team member?

 

[msgkings322]

Winning? What has Luka, Harden, Anthony Davis and Giannis won? What has Durant won without joining up with a team who had already won a title without him?

And how is Paul George not a superstar, when he is a 6 time all star, 5 time all NBA pick (with a 1st team all NBA last year) and a 4 time all NBA defensive team member?

Maybe instead of a wall of contradictory questions, you can just tell us who the superstars are.

 

[tlance]

Maybe instead of a wall of contradictory questions, you can just tell us who the superstars are.

Draymond Green, Klay Thompson and Bradley Beal.

Duh.

 

[tlance]

Maybe instead of a wall of contradictory questions, you can just tell us who the superstars are.

Draymond Green, Klay Thompson and Bradley Beal.

Duh.

 

[msgkings322]

Draymond Green, Klay Thompson and Bradley Beal.

Duh.

I mean, his list may just be LeBron and Curry and Kawhi who knows. If you want to have very strict criteria for that label, that's fine. You just have a more expansive list.

 

[tlance]

Winning? What has Luka, Harden, Anthony Davis and Giannis won? What has Durant won without joining up with a team who had already won a title without him?

And how is Paul George not a superstar, when he is a 6 time all star, 5 time all NBA pick (with a 1st team all NBA last year) and a 4 time all NBA defensive team member?

You are trying way too hard and you are all over the place.

The Mavericks this year are 34-19 in games where Luka has played more than 2 minutes. 5-8 in games where he played less than that. He is worth about 20 wins for his team. Maybe more. That is superstar impact.

Davis the same. He carried the Pelicans to the 2nd round of the playoffs after Cousins got hurt 2 years ago and his 2 way stats are insane. Giannis and Harden? You are an idiot to question those. Deep playoff runs + last 2 MVPs.

Paul George is very good. Clearly in the next tier of guys. But there has never been evidence that he has had anywhere near that level of impact on his team winning games. Never. He is not a superstar. George is an elite 2nd option or a middle of the road first option.

 

[tlance]

I mean, his list may just be LeBron and Curry and Kawhi who knows. If you want to have very strict criteria for that label, that's fine. You just have a more expansive list.

Which is funny, because usually I am extremely stingy with that label.

I just happen to believe there are more superstars today than any previous era of NBA basketball. Lots of special players right now.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You are trying way too hard and you are all over the place.

The Mavericks this year are 34-19 in games where Luka has played more than 2 minutes. 5-8 in games where he played less than that. He is worth about 20 wins for his team. Maybe more. That is superstar impact.

Davis the same. He carried the Pelicans to the 2nd round of the playoffs after Cousins got hurt 2 years ago and his 2 way stats are insane. Giannis and Harden? You are an idiot to question those. Deep playoff runs + last 2 MVPs.

Paul George is very good. Clearly in the next tier of guys. But there has never been evidence that he has had anywhere near that level of impact on his team winning games. Never. He is not a superstar. George is an elite 2nd option or a middle of the road first option.

You are the one who mentioned winning as part of the criteria. Hence why I asked what Harden and Giannis have won? And if winning is part of it -- Anthony Davis can't be mentioned, as he has won a single playoff series in 7 years.

Personally -- I think Harden is a tremendous talent on offense, but he is a detriment on defense. And I'd bet my life he will never win a title not only with Houston, but any team he is on. He is a better offensive version of Carmelo Anthony to me.

And you mention w/l for players, and say George isn't a superstar but George joined a Pacers team who had won 37 games and in 3 years they won 56 games with him. He missed a year hurt and they won 38 games without him.

I guess it all comes down to opinion in the end. I put more value in two way play. It is why, if I had to bet money on who would win the title this year -- I'd bet the Clippers with Kawhi and George (who are two of the best two way players in the NBA).

I apologize if I have rambled or bounced around -- with this corona shit, I'm jumping back and forth as I keep my son occupied. And the only reason I'm even going this deep into the conversation is nothing better to do with the state lockdown here.

 

[msgkings322]

You are the one who mentioned winning as part of the criteria. Hence why I asked what Harden and Giannis have won? And if winning is part of it -- Anthony Davis can't be mentioned, as he has won a single playoff series in 7 years.

Personally -- I think Harden is a tremendous talent on offense, but he is a detriment on defense. And I'd bet my life he will never win a title not only with Houston, but any team he is on. He is a better offensive version of Carmelo Anthony to me.

And you mention w/l for players, and say George isn't a superstar but George joined a Pacers team who had won 37 games and in 3 years they won 56 games with him. He missed a year hurt and they won 38 games without him.

I guess it all comes down to opinion in the end. I put more value in two way play. It is why, if I had to bet money on who would win the title this year -- I'd bet the Clippers with Kawhi and George (who are two of the best two way players in the NBA).

I apologize if I have rambled or bounced around -- with this corona shit, I'm jumping back and forth as I keep my son occupied. And the only reason I'm even going this deep into the conversation is nothing better to do with the state lockdown here.

Seriously, why not just list who YOU think the superstars are? Not antagonizing, genuinely curious. What are your criteria? I'm guessing you think the superstars are LeBron, Kawhi, and PG? Giannis?

 

[tlance]

You are the one who mentioned winning as part of the criteria. Hence why I asked what Harden and Giannis have won? And if winning is part of it -- Anthony Davis can't be mentioned, as he has won a single playoff series in 7 years.

Personally -- I think Harden is a tremendous talent on offense, but he is a detriment on defense. And I'd bet my life he will never win a title not only with Houston, but any team he is on. He is a better offensive version of Carmelo Anthony to me.

And you mention w/l for players, and say George isn't a superstar but George joined a Pacers team who had won 37 games and in 3 years they won 56 games with him. He missed a year hurt and they won 38 games without him.

I guess it all comes down to opinion in the end. I put more value in two way play. It is why, if I had to bet money on who would win the title this year -- I'd bet the Clippers with Kawhi and George (who are two of the best two way players in the NBA).

I apologize if I have rambled or bounced around -- with this corona shit, I'm jumping back and forth as I keep my son occupied. And the only reason I'm even going this deep into the conversation is nothing better to do with the state lockdown here.

You are good man. No worries.

Agreed on Harden. He Probably won’t ever win a championship.

And “winning” isn’t just about rings. When you get to the next level, all time great debates the ring count matters. When looking at who are the best of the best at any current moment, impact on winning really means that they can elevate their team and get them in the discussion.

Harden and Giannis have absolutely done that. Both have had their teams on the short list of contenders for the last 2’years.

There are plenty of guys who were “superstars” in their era who never won rings. Guys like Karl Malone, Ewing and Barkley. Those guys will never ascend near the top of GOAT debates because they lack that hardware. But, they were good enough to have their respective teams in the hunt year in and year out for a long time. They were superstars.

just not good enough to beat Jordan. Like Harden wasn’t good enough to beat the Warriors. Which is probably only reason he doesn’t have a title today. That he couldn’t beat an all time great time.

As for George, again, very nice player. I love 2 way guys and he is one of the best. But aside from 1 year with the Pacers nearly a decade ago, the only time his team has been a legit contender was nearly a decade ago. He doesn’t have the offensive numbers that the others on the list have and he is notorious for coming up small in the biggest moments. As good as he is, I don’t think he is good enough to carry a team on his back like the rest of these guys have shown the ability to do.