Im sorry Mussina isnt deserving of HOF.

[Yanks23242]

You have to do it for more than 6 years to be among the best of the best. If you want to say he had one of the best 6-year stretches of all second baseman, I'll give him that. But Utley isn't among the best based on a 6-year run. No way.

Better than Utley:
Robbie Alomar
Jeff Kent
Eddie Collins
Bobby Doerr
Frankie Frisch
Charlie Gehringer
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Morgan
Tony Lazzeri
Jackie Robinson
Ryne Sandberg
Robinson Cano
Craig Biggio
Lou Whitaker
Joe Gordon

From 05-10 Utley averaged 7.6 bWAR, had a 133 OPS+ and a .388 OBP. I can confidently say the vast majority of your list falls short of those numbers.

 

[PolarVortex]

From 05-10 Utley averaged 7.6 bWAR, had a 133 OPS+ and a .388 OBP. I can confidently say the vast majority of your list falls short of those numbers.

I have no doubt. And as I said in my latest previous post, a great 6-year run does not qualify one for being among the all time greats based on career achievement. It only means he had one of the greater 6-year runs for a second baseman. The difference is huge. Here's an example:
Don Mattingly had a great 6-year run from 1984-1989 run (27 HR, 114 RBI, 147 OPS+, 5 GG) until a bad back compromised the remainder of his career. He is not recognized as an all time great at first base.

 

[navamind]

I have no doubt. And as I said in my latest previous post, a great 6-year run does not qualify one for being among the all time greats based on career achievement. It only means he had one of the greater 6-year runs for a second baseman. The difference is huge. Here's an example:
Don Mattingly had a great 6-year run from 1984-1989 run (27 HR, 114 RBI, 147 OPS+, 5 GG) until a bad back compromised the remainder of his career. He is not recognized as an all time great at first base.

because he isn't. A 147 OPS+ is great, but hardly unprecedented at 1B. A 135 OPS+ from a 2B (which is what Utley had from 05-09) is more valuable than a 147 OPS+ from a 1st baseman. Mattingly was also a pretty average player after while Utley continued to be a good 2nd baseman (116 OPS+ from 2010-14 and put up 20 WAR despite injuries).

 

[PolarVortex]

because he isn't. A 147 OPS+ is great, but hardly unprecedented at 1B. A 135 OPS+ from a 2B (which is what Utley had from 05-09) is more valuable than a 147 OPS+ from a 1st baseman. Mattingly was also a pretty average player after while Utley continued to be a good 2nd baseman (116 OPS+ from 2010-14 and put up 20 WAR despite injuries).

And those factors may have mattered if Mattingly hadn't had 5 GGs to Utley's zero, and 4 top 8 MVP finishes to Utley's 3.

 

[navamind]

Jim Rice had more All-Star appearances and top 5 MVP finishes (including an MVP!) than Edgar Martinez. Guess Rice was better.

 

[PolarVortex]

Jim Rice had more All-Star appearances and top 5 MVP finishes (including an MVP!) than Edgar Martinez. Guess Rice was better.

I'd agree with that. Still doesn't make Utley at top (15) all time second second baseman.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I have no doubt. And as I said in my latest previous post, a great 6-year run does not qualify one for being among the all time greats based on career achievement. It only means he had one of the greater 6-year runs for a second baseman. The difference is huge. Here's an example:
Don Mattingly had a great 6-year run from 1984-1989 run (27 HR, 114 RBI, 147 OPS+, 5 GG) until a bad back compromised the remainder of his career. He is not recognized as an all time great at first base.

Kent's best single season WAR wouldn't even be in Utley's top 5. That's how great Utley's run was.

Utley had a historically great 6 year run and a couple of solid seasons on top of that (from 2011-2014 Utley averaged a 114 OPS+).

Utley > Kent

 

[PolarVortex]

Kent's best single season WAR wouldn't even be in Utley's top 5. That's how great Utley's run was.

Utley had a historically great 6 year run and a couple of solid seasons on top of that (from 2011-2014 Utley averaged a 114 OPS+).

Utley > Kent

Kent's career achievement were far greater that Utley's. If you are unwilling to acknowledge this in spite of the statistical evidence to the contrary, then you are clearly desperately needy to save face, win an argument that you are hopelessly incapable of winning.

Yes, Utley had a better six year run than Kent. No, Utley did not have a better career than Kent. No, Utley is not more qualified of a HOF candidate than Kent.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

So now Mussina is going in not as an Oriole or a Yankee, but with no logo on his hat at all. Which fits his personality perfectly, but weak sauce by the HOF to not pick one or the other.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Kent's career achievement were far greater that Utley's. If you are unwilling to acknowledge this in spite of the statistical evidence to the contrary, then you are clearly desperately needy to save face, win an argument that you are hopelessly incapable of winning.

Yes, Utley had a better six year run than Kent. No, Utley did not have a better career than Kent. No, Utley is not more qualified of a HOF candidate than Kent.

Funny, you don't seem to care about Jeter's career accomplishments when comparing him to others..

I seem to recall you claiming that playing a premium position doesn't matter when youre not better defensively than half the league at that position. Was Kent? If anything, you should be regarding Kent as a 1B who they put at 2B.

 

[Montalban]

Halladay wouldn't be in right now if he was breathing.



But I think he would've got in before Schilling either way.

Agrred. Get prepared to be attacked for your "imbecillic" thoughts on the subject.

 

[Montalban]

You couldn't tell that a guy who finished top 5 in Cy voting 7x (including 4x finishing 1st or 2nd) was one of the elite guys of his generation?

Additionally, Halladay:
-finished top 3 in ERA 5x
-won 20 games 3x and had another 2 seasons of 19 wins
-led the league in innings 4x
-finished top 3 in ERA 5x
-finished 1st or 2nd in WHIP 5x
-led the league in complete games 7x


How was that not obvious?[/QUOTE]
I didn't pay that much attention to him being up in Canada and with the Phillies. I knew he had some really good individual years but when someone showed me all his years back to back I could see he was very good; just below the level of a guy I would put in the Hall.

 

[Montalban]

Yes. Fucktards on the internet get me so mad. My hands are shaking and my face is red. Whatever you do, don't say more retarded shit or I'm gonna blow my top.

Mad? you seem to be in a spittle-flying rage; little fists pounding mommy's keyboard.

 

[PolarVortex]

Funny, you don't seem to care about Jeter's career accomplishments when comparing him to others..

I seem to recall you claiming that playing a premium position doesn't matter when youre not better defensively than half the league at that position. Was Kent? If anything, you should be regarding Kent as a 1B who they put at 2B.

Jeter? A shortstop? Your desperation is clearly expanding. This discussion has nothing to do with Derek Jeter.

However, I'm flattered that your obsession with me follows me from several years back.

 

[Rex Racer]

Well you’re wrong. Statistically, Mussina is one of the best 25 pitchers of all time, which actually meets your insane 5 players a generation rule. So even by your own insane guidelines Mussina easily passes the threshold.

 

[black francis]

Pitcher A - .638 win %, 123 ERA+, 1.19 WHIP, 57 CG, 23 shutouts, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9
Pitcher B - .615 win %, 121 ERA+, 1.30 WHIP, 52 CG, 22 shutouts, 3.1 BB/9, 5.4 K/9
Pitcher C - .579 win %, 125 ERA+, 1.18 WHIP, 53 CG, 16 shutouts, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9





Pitcher A is Mussina
Pitcher B is Glavine through the same # of innings (if we added his last few seasons those numbers get worse)
Pitcher C is Smoltz


So if Mussina is not HOF worthy and just average, what are Glavine and Smoltz?

Easier to pitch with run support, and Mussina played with the roidiest team of his era

 

[navamind]

I didn't pay that much attention to him being up in Canada and with the Phillies. I knew he had some really good individual years but when someone showed me all his years back to back I could see he was very good; just below the level of a guy I would put in the Hall.

That's because you're not a baseball fan.

 

[Yanks23242]

Kent's career achievement were far greater that Utley's. If you are unwilling to acknowledge this in spite of the statistical evidence to the contrary, then you are clearly desperately needy to save face, win an argument that you are hopelessly incapable of winning.

Yes, Utley had a better six year run than Kent. No, Utley did not have a better career than Kent. No, Utley is not more qualified of a HOF candidate than Kent.

Kent was the better hitter, but not by much. Utley was the better player.

 

[broncosmitty]

Agrred. Get prepared to be attacked for your "imbecillic" thoughts on the subject.

Lol

I'm used to it.

Halladay was always a HOFer to me. Just think he might've went a year or two on the ballot if it weren't for his untimely death. Ron Santo waited 30 years. Dies and BOOM, hello Cooperstown.


Rivera wouldn't have been the first unanimous selection if votes weren't public either. He got it out of fear. Silly that a relief pitcher is the first guy ever if you ask me. Even if he's GOAT at his position.

 

[broncosmitty]

Easier to pitch with run support, and Mussina played with the roidiest team of his era

He played for Oakland?