Habs-Sens Series Thread

[Comeds]

Whew...beer time now.....

Really cant stand either team but for you comed...go habs

Thanks buddy!

 

[dash]

Man, you guys are ridiculous.

Shanahan has given you transparency pretty much unheard of in any sport. He breaks down everything he sees, almost frame by frame, in delivering his judgement, and still you bitch.

Does he always make the correct decision? No. But guess what? NOBODY WILL. It's a judgement call. But at the very least, I think this is the start of a process whereby every hit is essentially publicly reviewed and the decision process is transparent and explained in clear concise terms. That is MASSIVE progress.

On to the hit: the debate is whether or not the principal point of contact is the head. It's definitely not black and white - stop pretending it is. It's simple physics - if he had gotten mostly body, the body would have reacted a certain way. The way Eller's body spins, it's pretty hard to claim that the head didn't at least receive the majority of the force of the check. I mean, Gryba pretty much skates right through the check. If he makes significant contact with the body, that's almost impossible.

And the day of bone-crushing headshots is over - deal with it. I loved the Scott Stevens checks as much as any one. But at the time, the worst I thought it did was ruin a career. Now we know better. Concussions can ruin lives. Pronger who can't see straight. NFL and NHL players who have to deal with depression and mental disorders as a result of hits to the head. Rugby players who need to leave signs pointing to their car keys every morning. It doesn't matter if it's a suicide pass - there's no room in a sport like hockey for hits like that. You see a player in a vulnerable position? Are you approaching from the blindside? You better be damn sure it's body to body. Gryba didn't. There wasn't malicious intent, but he could have done more to avoid hitting the head.

I love knockouts. I'm a big MMA fan. But those guys go into the cage/ring knowing what they're up against, and facing their opponents at all times. You can blame Diaz for that pass all you want, but it shouldn't matter. Eller did nothing wrong, and had no way to prepare or defend himself for that hit. If he's hit full on body to body, worst he gets is winded. Maybe a dislocated shoulder, fine. Might ruin his career, but he's not dealing with headaches and impaired vision for the rest of his life.

With what we know today, there simply has to be more onus on players throwing the bodycheck to avoid headshots, it's that simple.

Hey Dacks, I have a couple of questions:

1. Are you just calling the people on SportsHoopla ridiculous who thought the suspension call by Shanny was a bad decision, or does that extend to Bob McKenzie, Aaron Ward, and Kerry Fraser of TSN who pretty much agreed with several of us that it was a hockey play that just had a terrible result.

2. If Eller manages to get up from that hit, or needs assistance from teammates or a trainer to get off the ice, but there's no stretcher or graphic bloody scene, does Gryba's hit in your opinion still warrant a suspension?

I look forward to your responses.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Hey Dacks, I have a couple of questions:

1. Are you just calling the people on SportsHoopla ridiculous who thought the suspension call by Shanny was a bad decision, or does that extend to Bob McKenzie, Aaron Ward, and Kerry Fraser of TSN who pretty much agreed with several of us that it was a hockey play that just had a terrible result.

2. If Eller manages to get up from that hit, or needs assistance from teammates or a trainer to get off the ice, but there's no stretcher or graphic bloody scene, does Gryba's hit in your opinion still warrant a suspension?

I look forward to your responses.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I look forward to your responses.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

 

[Comeds]

Anyone else think Ryan White looks like Arya on Game of Thrones? I don't mean this as mean or a goof. I really think they look alike - same shaped face.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Anyone else think Ryan White looks like Arya on Game of Thrones? I don't mean this as mean or a goof. I really think they look alike - same shaped face.

I haven't watched the show and I've kind of been saving it.

Thanks for ruining it for me!!!

Fucking Habs fans!!!!

 

[Comeds]

I haven't watched the show and I've kind of been saving it.

Thanks for ruining it for me!!!

Fucking Habs fans!!!!

Sorry. I put "spoiler alert" in my post but one of the mods removed it. I think Dash.

 

[forty_three]

Very impressed with the Habs' response. Physical, but not headhunting. Aggressive, but focused.

Best series so far.

 

[Dacks]

Hey Dacks, I have a couple of questions:

1. Are you just calling the people on SportsHoopla ridiculous who thought the suspension call by Shanny was a bad decision, or does that extend to Bob McKenzie, Aaron Ward, and Kerry Fraser of TSN who pretty much agreed with several of us that it was a hockey play that just had a terrible result.

2. If Eller manages to get up from that hit, or needs assistance from teammates or a trainer to get off the ice, but there's no stretcher or graphic bloody scene, does Gryba's hit in your opinion still warrant a suspension?

I look forward to your responses.

1. The "ridiculous" comment was more directed towards how much heat Shanahan gets. A lot of people thinks he's no better than Campbell. Shanahan (or maybe I should say the NHL in general) still has A LOT of improving to do. The inconsistency is the worst, obviously, both in what gets suspended and the length of suspensions. But the transparency is admirable.

As to the hit itself, I think a lot of fans and commentators are still stuck in a pre-"rule 48" mindset. I'm pretty sure I said in my post, that it was up for debate whether or not the head was the "principal" point of contact. McKenzie recognized that - even though I disagreed with his assessment. I'm okay with that. But there are many others who think it doesn't matter, that a headshot is okay because it was a "suicide pass". Post-rule-48, it doesn't matter.

On TSN, Aaron Ward and Paul Maurice summed up the debate perfectly. Ward, like many here, think that because it wasn't interference, wasn't an elbow, and because it was a suicide pass, that Gryba can't be blamed. Paul Maurice countered that we have to do a better job protecting our players, regardless of whose fault it is.

I know we like to say "keep your head up" and "don't admire your pass" - that's old time hockey. Like I said, I loved the Scott Stevens hits of old. I was so pumped when Kasparaitus knocked out Lindros. But we now know that these headshots aren't just career-enders - they are potentially life-changers. That has changed my mind.

A players has a responsibility to defend himself - definitely. But when they are in a defenceless and vulnerable position, some of that responsibility transfers to the hitter. Eller couldn't have done anything differently there - he shouldn't have to expect a headshot.

2. Yes. If you stop the video right before Eller's head smashes the glass, it sitll looks like the head was the principal point of contact. That's my opinion of course, and I concede that it's debateable.

Regardless, the result will always influence the consequences. It's like that in life, too. A drunk driver who hits and kills three children will get a bigger punishment than the drunk driver who just gets pulled over. If you punch a guy in a bar, it's assault. If he falls, hits his head on a chair and dies, you're charged with manslaughter. Same action, different results, different legal consequences. I think the league overplays the result way too much (high sticking double minors are the dumbest) but injuries will always play a factor. To me it goes along these lines: if you commit a dangerous penalty, you had better be ready to deal with the potential outcomes.

 

[dash]

Dacks, thanks, I appreciate your responses and in turn, here are mine:

1. Regarding Shanny - I'll grant you he's got a difficult job at times, but like a referee in a hockey game, all I'm asking for is consistency. There have been far too many incidents where players have committed egregious fouls that have gone unpunished (including blatant head shots) where the injured party has also missed games due to injury. Some of these incidents are not even reviewed by the disciplinary committee and I think the league/Shanny needs to do a much better job explaining why certain cases get reviewed while others are tossed aside (although my theory leads into into response 2 below).

2. Outcome of a foul rather than the actual act committed determines the suspension - It really appears to me (especially of late) that Shanny suspends guys based on whether or not they are injured and to me, that's just not right. You need to look at the act committed first to determine whether or not suspension is warranted and then you can add additional punishment on top of that based on the outcome of the foul. I point to Taylor Hall (who was suspended earlier this season for a knee-on-knee hit) and a recent vicious two-hander he gave to Zbyanek Michalek of the Coyotes. There was no suspension or fine for this slash mainly because Michalek wasn't injured (at least that's what I have to believe because the league didn't provide any further comment on the incident). Getting back to the Gryba hit on Eller, I'm not even sure there was a penalty on the play (yes, they called a five minute major for interference, but the puck was right there at Eller's feet when the hit was made. If you're going to call a penalty, I don't see how you can call interference).

Sorry that this is getting long-winded, but in summary, I think you need to determine if the player committed an act worthy of suspension and then look at the severity of the injury to tack on additional punishment. As we all know, hockey is a violent game and players can get injured on clean body checks as well as hits that definitely cross the line. That all said, I feel bad for Lars Eller and I hope to see him in a Habs uniform soon.

 

[BOSSMANPC]

I agree with the inconsistencies and will "mix" both comments. I'll bring up one from a couple of years ago. Like Dacks said with blaming the pass. Do you guy's remember when Lucic ran over Miller? Some people said "He shouldn't have been out of the crease" so it's the same scenario.

Miller is a star and was injured on the play (concussed for a long period of time) Lucic made no attempt to avoid the collision. So Miller gets clobbered and concussed and there is NO suspension. I think there was a fine but will need to check. To me that hit was worth a few games.

I could name a few other cases like this, It just seems like there are no set rules even when it comes to a player getting injured. Yes, Shannys job is tough and the attempt at transparency seems like a good idea (with the videos) but I'm no less confused than I was a couple years ago before Shanny got the job and the fact that HNIC, TSN and even all of us regular fans continue to discuss it and even with the new rules IMO proves we have made zero progress.


Just my two cents.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I agree with the inconsistencies and will "mix" both comments. I'll bring up one from a couple of years ago. Like Dacks said with blaming the pass. Do you guy's remember when Lucic ran over Miller? Some people said "He shouldn't have been out of the crease" so it's the same scenario.

Miller is a star and was injured on the play (concussed for a long period of time) Lucic made no attempt to avoid the collision. So Miller gets clobbered and concussed and there is NO suspension.

I could name a few other cases like this, It just seems like there are no set rules even when it comes to a player getting injured. Yes, Shannys job is tough and the attempt at transparency seems like a good idea (with the videos) but I'm no less confused than I was a couple years ago before Shanny got the job and the fact that HNIC, TSN and even all of us regular fans continue to discuss it and even with the new rules IMO proves we have made zero progress.


Just my two cents.

That paragraph sums up the situation pretty well, IMO.

 

[forty_three]

Paul Maurice countered that we have to do a better job protecting our players, regardless of whose fault it is.

The problem with this argument is that it was the ice that caused the injury. So the ice should be suspended two games? To protect the players?

1. Regarding Shanny - I'll grant you he's got a difficult job at times, but like a referee in a hockey game, all I'm asking for is consistency. There have been far too many incidents where players have committed egregious fouls that have gone unpunished (including blatant head shots) where the injured party has also missed games due to injury. Some of these incidents are not even reviewed by the disciplinary committee and I think the league/Shanny needs to do a much better job explaining why certain cases get reviewed while others are tossed aside (although my theory leads into into response 2 below).

The only illustration you need on this point is the Elbow from behind that Rick Nash dealt out that wasn't even reviewed. We have the exact same random "standards", it's just that now we (occasionally) get the infomercial with increasingly flawed arguments.

I could name a few other cases like this, It just seems like there are no set rules even when it comes to a player getting injured. Yes, Shannys job is tough and the attempt at transparency seems like a good idea (with the videos) but I'm no less confused than I was a couple years ago before Shanny got the job and the fact that HNIC, TSN and even all of us regular fans continue to discuss it and even with the new rules IMO proves we have made zero progress.

Yup.

And the injury factor should not be the primary determiner in the suspension, the act itself should be. If they want to use injury as a multiplier, I guess that's fine. Chris Neil was not injured when PK Subban charged him in the same game. That foul was 10x more egregious than the Gryba hit.

But latching onto the injury first is a slippery slope. So do we punish whoever shot the pucks that hit Crosby or Staal in the face? To protect them?

No, an injury on a hockey play is unfortunate. And it happens. And a penalty is a penalty whether someone gets hurt or not. I feel bad for Eller, I really do. But he was not hit in a dirty way. The ice was more responsible for his injury that Gryba. DIAZ was more responsible for his injury than Gryba, actually.

 

[IPostedWhat]

 

[KennyBanyeah]

The problem with this argument is that it was the ice that caused the injury. So the ice should be suspended two games? To protect the players?



The only illustration you need on this point is the Elbow from behind that Rick Nash dealt out that wasn't even reviewed. We have the exact same random "standards", it's just that now we (occasionally) get the infomercial with increasingly flawed arguments.



Yup.

And the injury factor should not be the primary determiner in the suspension, the act itself should be. If they want to use injury as a multiplier, I guess that's fine. Chris Neil was not injured when PK Subban charged him in the same game. That foul was 10x more egregious than the Gryba hit.

But latching onto the injury first is a slippery slope. So do we punish whoever shot the pucks that hit Crosby or Staal in the face? To protect them?

No, an injury on a hockey play is unfortunate. And it happens. And a penalty is a penalty whether someone gets hurt or not. I feel bad for Eller, I really do. But he was not hit in a dirty way. The ice was more responsible for his injury that Gryba. DIAZ was more responsible for his injury than Gryba, actually.

 

[Dacks]

The problem with this argument is that it was the ice that caused the injury. So the ice should be suspended two games? To protect the players?

I guess you think the boards should be suspended for boarding?

Eller was out in the air. Hitting the ice probably caused the bloody nose, and increased the damage, but if he's not knocked unconscious by the hit, he probably would have tried to, I dunno, use his hands to protect himself?

 

[forty_three]

I guess you think the boards should be suspended for boarding?

Eller was out in the air. Hitting the ice probably caused the bloody nose, and increased the damage, but if he's not knocked unconscious by the hit, he probably would have tried to, I dunno, use his hands to protect himself?

Just trying to illustrate how much of a copout the "for the safety" argument is when deciding what should be punished and what shouldn't. Hockey is a fast game played by large men in a box with sticks in their hands and knives on their feet. It's dangerous. And people get hurt through no one's fault. Like in this case.

Eller was knocked out because after Gryba's shoulder hit his chest, his chin hit the top of Gryba's shoulder and his head the back of Gryba's helmet. The ice is still what did the damage though.

The only ways to have avoided injury for him is for him to have been wearing a full face shield or if Gryba's shoulder pads had been made of memory foam or had airbags.

 

[BlueWolfZero]

Kevin Weeks' "sources" said Brian Gionta needed surgery on his arm and was done for the playoffs....out there skating in the warm up tonight.
Goalies....smh

 

[dash]

20 seconds in and Subban is already flopping to the ice - Cut that crap out PK.