Graveman Traded

[Cloud]

For me, I think it's worth mentioning again as I said it in the other thread, relief pitchers are dime a dozen pitchers and someone can come along and step in to fill Graveman's shoes. But like NWinAZ, I don't hate the Graveman deal, I just really thought he's worth more. Dipoto should have the leverage here should he not when coming to terms with the Astros? They are in desperate need of bullpen help, so it could've been more? However, if Dipoto is to be believed, then I think the pieces the M's just got can be flipped for something. We'll see.

 

[Podunkparte]

What bias though. How does this help the goal of the team for the future? Graveman helps the team now, Toro does not have a role as anything other than a utility player in the plan. He isn’t going to surpass White/France. He isn’t above Marte (who will end up at 3B).

If this is all he could get for Graveman then Jerry should’ve said pass. This move completely smells like Jerry didn’t want to admit he made a mistake with Montero because he flipped him.

The recency bias of a big emotional win last night and a good stretch of series lately. The goal is still to improve the team for years to come, not just make a splash this year, which is something Dipoto saw Toro having a better chance at than Graveman, which makes sense given their team control.

 

[Kernz]

I do not understand this trade.

 

[Msfann]

I'm not so sad about Graveman, closer's can become extremely over valued and they have a huge chance of falling back to earth and destroying that value. If the kid they got can turn things around it becomes a HUGE win for Seattle with his contract.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I think if this exact same trade happened a few weeks ago there's a lot less reaction.

The timing is what made it awkward because of the 4 straight wins and the fact that he went to the Astros.

The reality is we aren't competing with the Astros. We just arent there yet.

I do think we will look back on this and probably understand it a bit more. The players reaction, and the media highlighting it obviously lit a fire under the fans reactions too.

 

[Podunkparte]

The reality is we aren't competing with the Astros. We just arent there yet.

This. It's the reason we won't be in on Kimbrel, Scherzer, or any other of the marquee guys who we'd have to win a bidding war with.

We've put ourselves in a position to compete with the A's for the wild card. That's the ceiling, and let's go for it, but we shouldn't get out in front of our skis and think this is the time to go all in.

 

[NWinAZ]

M's actually taking on more money in a weird trade. Smith making $4M this year while Montero making $2.25. Graveman $1.250 vs Toro at $570,500.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Yea im not sure what their plan is with Toro, maybe 2nd this year and a Seger hedge for next year?

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Talk about not considering the players, the emotion of this trade just ended the season, losing streak starts now …. Players were breaking equipment and saying typical Mariners, they don’t care about winning, same old crap …. From the ultimate high, the team is wining, amazing comeback, to the ultimate low … Dumb &)&&ing move by Dipoto … Especially when you’re trying to catch that team within your division and you’re in the middle of playing them !! … I can’t believe how stupid this move was… Graveman cared deeply about this team, was emotional, you don’t see that very often …. &$@$ ing Mariners man…

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Sure Graveman was great, but don't let recency bias cloud the fact that the goal of this team is to build a team that competes for years to come, not just a flash in the pan season, hoping one of the worst hitting lineups and a rotation with 4 starting pitchers can make a miracle happen.

Leverage a closer who's a FA in months when you can. Plus Paul Sewald has been as good as Graveman.

It’s cool to search for optimism, but this move just took all momentum away from this team, he was clearly a very liked player, clubhouse leader… Dumb move

 

[SeattleCoug]

This. It's the reason we won't be in on Kimbrel, Scherzer, or any other of the marquee guys who we'd have to win a bidding war with.

We've put ourselves in a position to compete with the A's for the wild card. That's the ceiling, and let's go for it, but we shouldn't get out in front of our skis and think this is the time to go all in.

This series sans a miraculous comeback the first game showed how far behind them we really are at this point. I do think it will be a different story next year though.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Talk about not considering the players, the emotion of this trade just ended the season, losing streak starts now …. Players were breaking equipment and saying typical Mariners, they don’t care about winning, same old crap …. From the ultimate high, the team is wining, amazing comeback, to the ultimate low … Dumb &)&&ing move by Dipoto … Especially when you’re trying to catch that team within your division and you’re in the middle of playing them !! … I can’t believe how stupid this move was… Graveman cared deeply about this team, was emotional, you don’t see that very often …. &$@$ ing Mariners man…

Ill just say if this clubhouse and team hinged on a rental reliever then there are much bigger issues at this point

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Ill just say if this clubhouse and team hinged on a rental reliever then there are much bigger issues at this point

He was dominating, a club house leader, and we’re in the playoff hunt … This move destroyed team moral when moral was at its highest point… his ERA was like 0.82 over the last 33 games … He was pitching as good as I’ve seen a reliever pitch…

Mariners players reportedly livid with GM Jerry Dipoto after Kendall Graveman trade: 'They don’t care about winning'

The Mariners are one game out of a playoff spot. They just traded their best reliever.

www.google.com

 

[SeattleCoug]

He was dominating, a club house leader, and we’re in the playoff hunt … This move destroyed team moral when moral was at its highest point… his ERA was like 0.82 over the last 33 games … He was pitching as good as I’ve seen a reliever pitch…

Mariners players reportedly livid with GM Jerry Dipoto after Kendall Graveman trade: 'They don’t care about winning'

The Mariners are one game out of a playoff spot. They just traded their best reliever.

www.google.com

I get the numbers and understand how this can be viewed as a same old Mariners type of move.

I just think there are alot of factors to consider here.

First of Graveman is a free agent at the end of year, pitching at peak value and will probably get paid this offseason. Also I think there is a good chance Toro helps this team just as much if not more. Especially if he is gonna primarily play second base. Literally rolling out anything close to average production at second base is likely gonna help this team as much as a reliever.
Shed Long -0.4 Fwar, 73 WRC+
Dylan Moore 0.3 Fwar, 79 WRC+ (most of his damage vs LHP)

Also there are numbers to suggest that Graveman has had a lot of luck go his way the last month and that's something that wont show up in ERA.

I think we really need to let this play out rather then overreact on it. A reliever is literally the easiest thing to replace

 

[NWinAZ]

I get the numbers and understand how this can be viewed as a same old Mariners type of move.

I just think there are alot of factors to consider here.

First of Graveman is a free agent at the end of year, pitching at peak value and will probably get paid this offseason. Also I think there is a good chance Toro helps this team just as much if not more. Especially if he is gonna primarily play second base. Literally rolling out anything close to average production at second base is likely gonna help this team as much as a reliever.
Shed Long -0.4 Fwar, 73 WRC+
Dylan Moore 0.3 Fwar, 79 WRC+ (most of his damage vs LHP)

Also there are numbers to suggest that Graveman has had a lot of luck go his way the last month and that's something that wont show up in ERA.

I think we really need to let this play out rather then overreact on it. A reliever is literally the easiest thing to replace

For me it is less the players in the trade so much as the direction and timing. The thing was bad and no-one can argue that even Dipoto admitted as much. But does the trade signal we are going for it? No. Does it signal we are building for next year? Yes I can see that. Should we be building or going for it? Can we do both? Will we do both?

I hate being in-between. If it is about 2021, sell out to a degree (no dealing top 7). If it is about 2022, why is Seager and Haniger still here?

My other problem with the deal is the BS factor. DIP says wait this is just one of many moves that will make more sense but no follow up so far and if this was a domino move why so long? It should have been done right after. Then DIP says today that Toro was just too good to pass up. I thought it was about moves and not move? He talks in circles and he loses credibility when he does this. If the trade was about Toro, just say this kid was too good to pass up for a first time reliever on an expiring contract. I would understand that.

 

[SeattleCoug]

For me it is less the players in the trade so much as the direction and timing. The thing was bad and no-one can argue that even Dipoto admitted as much. But does the trade signal we are going for it? No. Does it signal we are building for next year? Yes I can see that. Should we be building or going for it? Can we do both? Will we do both?

I hate being in-between. If it is about 2021, sell out to a degree (no dealing top 7). If it is about 2022, why is Seager and Haniger still here?

My other problem with the deal is the BS factor. DIP says wait this is just one of many moves that will make more sense but no follow up so far and if this was a domino move why so long? It should have been done right after. Then DIP says today that Toro was just too good to pass up. I thought it was about moves and not move? He talks in circles and he loses credibility when he does this. If the trade was about Toro, just say this kid was too good to pass up for a first time reliever on an expiring contract. I would understand that.

Again I think Toro can be a move for now and the future.

You compare the upgrade Toro could bring at 2B compared to what was there, and compare it to what you need to replace Graveman in the bullpen, I dont think the downgrade is as much as people are making it out to be. They could easily grab another reliever who is similar to Graveman.

I will give this all to the end of tomorrow before I really judge it to much. Believe me I have no trouble being critical of the team/Dipoto but I just dont think its warranted quite yet.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

I get the numbers and understand how this can be viewed as a same old Mariners type of move.

I just think there are alot of factors to consider here.

First of Graveman is a free agent at the end of year, pitching at peak value and will probably get paid this offseason. Also I think there is a good chance Toro helps this team just as much if not more. Especially if he is gonna primarily play second base. Literally rolling out anything close to average production at second base is likely gonna help this team as much as a reliever.
Shed Long -0.4 Fwar, 73 WRC+
Dylan Moore 0.3 Fwar, 79 WRC+ (most of his damage vs LHP)

Also there are numbers to suggest that Graveman has had a lot of luck go his way the last month and that's something that wont show up in ERA.

I think we really need to let this play out rather then overreact on it. A reliever is literally the easiest thing to replace

Talk me off the ledge, keep going ! You make some good points, I’m just reacting to how emotional the players got, he was a really liked guy, and when he was showing emotion about the trade himself, it made me like the guy even more, he didn’t view it as just a business, he was really liking the clubhouse… Just sucks … But you’re right about letting it play out, just a bummer with the timing …

 

[SeattleCoug]

Talk me off the ledge, keep going ! You make some good points, I’m just reacting to how emotional the players got, he was a really liked guy, and when he was showing emotion about the trade himself, it made me like the guy even more, he didn’t view it as just a business, he was really liking the clubhouse… Just sucks … But you’re right about letting it play out, just a bummer with the timing …

Believe me, I was more on the wtf side when it broke but I kinda looked at it a little slower and understood it more

 

[NWinAZ]

Again I think Toro can be a move for now and the future.

You compare the upgrade Toro could bring at 2B compared to what was there, and compare it to what you need to replace Graveman in the bullpen, I dont think the downgrade is as much as people are making it out to be. They could easily grab another reliever who is similar to Graveman.

I will give this all to the end of tomorrow before I really judge it to much. Believe me I have no trouble being critical of the team/Dipoto but I just dont think its warranted quite yet.

I get your points, but if the bullpen was our strength all year why mess with it? If we had a guy or guys to replace a guy with an under 1 ERA, then I am with you for this year (I think the long-term value is in our favor). I get we could add strength to our offense if he delivers, but not sure if that outweighs the loss of our main bullpen arm.

Plus the player reaction issue weighs on a team that has had a history of disappointment. If we were out of it, then no issue. Weird times as a M's fan.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

I get your points, but if the bullpen was our strength all year why mess with it? If we had a guy or guys to replace a guy with an under 1 ERA, then I am with you for this year (I think the long-term value is in our favor). I get we could add strength to our offense if he delivers, but not sure if that outweighs the loss of our main bullpen arm.

Plus the player reaction issue weighs on a team that has had a history of disappointment. If we were out of it, then no issue. Weird times as a M's fan.

And ironically we’ve blown 2 saves now since he left, definitely games we probably win with him still here … But we gotta wait and see now, give it time …