Graveman Traded

[seattlefan75]

I will defend this trade and say that this is a more longer term move. A lot of people like what Graveman did this season as they should but sometimes (especially in baseball) players can whatever reason play above their capabilities and I personally believe that is what Graveman is doing and Dipoto is trying to take advantage of that. Lets not forget he is a journeyman pitcher who I believe was going to be a free agent this summer and probably was going to test the free agent market so the odds of him returning probably wasnt high. If the team goes on this losing tear that has nothing to do with Graveman and more so what they really are as a team.

We also have to note that since being traded to the Mariners Toro has his 9-18 with 2 homers and 4 RBI's

 

[NWinAZ]

If the team goes on this losing tear that has nothing to do with Graveman and more so what they really are as a team.

Yet we won with Graveman so...

I don't think it has to do with the individuals as individuals as much as the individuals as a unit. Toro has been on fire yet we still lose. Moore and Long hit like shit yet came up a few times with winning hits. I just think you have to look beyond the individual stats and look at the makeup of it all. I mean there has to be a reason why the best team on paper every year doesn't win it, right?

 

[wazzu31]

I will defend this trade and say that this is a more longer term move. A lot of people like what Graveman did this season as they should but sometimes (especially in baseball) players can whatever reason play above their capabilities and I personally believe that is what Graveman is doing and Dipoto is trying to take advantage of that. Lets not forget he is a journeyman pitcher who I believe was going to be a free agent this summer and probably was going to test the free agent market so the odds of him returning probably wasnt high. If the team goes on this losing tear that has nothing to do with Graveman and more so what they really are as a team.

We also have to note that since being traded to the Mariners Toro has his 9-18 with 2 homers and 4 RBI's

The part about Graveman being a journeyman just isn’t 100% true. Since his surgery the Mariners converted him to a bullpen arm in which he has shined with improving his velocity. Graveman’s success coming back to TJ is exactly what Jerry is banking on with Munoz and Giles next year.

 

[Podunkparte]

Yet we won with Graveman so...

I don't think it has to do with the individuals as individuals as much as the individuals as a unit. Toro has been on fire yet we still lose. Moore and Long hit like shit yet came up a few times with winning hits. I just think you have to look beyond the individual stats and look at the makeup of it all. I mean there has to be a reason why the best team on paper every year doesn't win it, right?

Correlation vs causation.

Without Toro we may not even have been in position to win those games. He clearly gives us a better chance to win day after day over guys like Shed Long.

The best teams on paper win consistently over time, which is what everyone wants. Long term plan > outside chance of playing a 1 game wild card.

And just having one or 2 guys playing great doesn't mean you can win either. Look at Trout, Ohtani, and the Angels. If trading away a bullpen arm for a needed bat ruins a team, there are deeper issues.

 

[wazzu31]

Correlation vs causation.

Without Toro we may not even have been in position to win those games. He clearly gives us a better chance to win day after day over guys like Shed Long.

The best teams on paper win consistently over time, which is what everyone wants. Long term plan > outside chance of playing a 1 game wild card.

And just having one or 2 guys playing great doesn't mean you can win either. Look at Trout, Ohtani, and the Angels. If trading away a bullpen arm for a needed bat ruins a team, there are deeper issues.

How is that correlation vs causation?

And your last part is 100% correct. This team still does have deeper issues, which is where this whole Graveman argument has gone way off the rails. The way it comes off if people who like trading Graveman are coming off as those of us who still don’t understand it wanted to trade Hancock and Julio to win now.

 

[Podunkparte]

How is that correlation vs causation?

And your last part is 100% correct. This team still does have deeper issues, which is where this whole Graveman argument has gone way off the rails. The way it comes off if people who like trading Graveman are coming off as those of us who still don’t understand it wanted to trade Hancock and Julio to win now.

Saying we won with Graveman then lost 2 without him doesn't mean we couldn't have won those without him or that we would have won them with him. Sure, Graveman played a big part in games we've won, but there are a lot of factors that go into winning a game.

I'm not following your second part. I didn't want to trade Hancock or Julio this year either. The Astros series alone shows that this team is still a little ways from adding 1 marquee name to go over the top. I'm not for selling off big time futures for a rental like Scherzer until we have a team that isn't drastically outplaying our peripherals like run differential.

 

[wazzu31]

Saying we won with Graveman then lost 2 without him doesn't mean we couldn't have won those without him or that we would have won them with him. Sure, Graveman played a big part in games we've won, but there are a lot of factors that go into winning a game.

I'm not following your second part. I didn't want to trade Hancock or Julio this year either. The Astros series alone shows that this team is still a little ways from adding 1 marquee name to go over the top. I'm not for selling off big time futures for a rental like Scherzer until we have a team that isn't drastically outplaying our peripherals like run differential.

But one of the factors in winning with Jerry’s philosophy is bullpen.

Not saying you necessarily but there somehow become narratives of if you like the Graveman trade you are all in on the rebuild. And somehow those of us who didn’t like the deal we wanted to blow up the farm system to make blockbuster trades and it seems have kind of become political where you have to be one or the other. I think we all agree this off-season is a must but sadly with Toro coming on board Jerry doesn’t have to open up the check book again because all he needs is a 2B/3B and hopefully an ace. He has way too many unknowns outside of Haniger and Crawford. Thought I do advocate for bringing Seager back.

The “holes” on the roster has guys penciled in already. The starting staff has some combo of Marco, Kikuchi, Flexen, Gilbert, Hancock and Kirby then of course Sheffield and Dunn. Bullpen is tricky because Sheffield and Dunn most likely go there. Castillo would be the closer and Giles and Munoz coming back from injury as set up guys. They got fletcher as the lefty, got Sewald and heck even if they would try it switch Williamson into a reliever.

Then they got to figure out the Haniger, Kelenic, Kyle Lewis, Mitch Haniger, Julio Rodriguez and Trammell issue. Crawford and Toro are the set starters, then you have Even White issue, if they just say hey go spend the year in Tacoma. Then France can play 1B or if they spend and get Bryant and Gallo sign and play 3B and 1B then France can go back to DH then Murphy or Torrens has to be dealt. That is the conundrum they are in the off-season and we all want them to spend money and try to make them an actual WS contender which is what fans should expect next year.

 

[Podunkparte]

But one of the factors in winning with Jerry’s philosophy is bullpen.

Not saying you necessarily but there somehow become narratives of if you like the Graveman trade you are all in on the rebuild. And somehow those of us who didn’t like the deal we wanted to blow up the farm system to make blockbuster trades and it seems have kind of become political where you have to be one or the other. I think we all agree this off-season is a must but sadly with Toro coming on board Jerry doesn’t have to open up the check book again because all he needs is a 2B/3B and hopefully an ace. He has way too many unknowns outside of Haniger and Crawford. Thought I do advocate for bringing Seager back.

The “holes” on the roster has guys penciled in already. The starting staff has some combo of Marco, Kikuchi, Flexen, Gilbert, Hancock and Kirby then of course Sheffield and Dunn. Bullpen is tricky because Sheffield and Dunn most likely go there. Castillo would be the closer and Giles and Munoz coming back from injury as set up guys. They got fletcher as the lefty, got Sewald and heck even if they would try it switch Williamson into a reliever.

Then they got to figure out the Haniger, Kelenic, Kyle Lewis, Mitch Haniger, Julio Rodriguez and Trammell issue. Crawford and Toro are the set starters, then you have Even White issue, if they just say hey go spend the year in Tacoma. Then France can play 1B or if they spend and get Bryant and Gallo sign and play 3B and 1B then France can go back to DH then Murphy or Torrens has to be dealt. That is the conundrum they are in the off-season and we all want them to spend money and try to make them an actual WS contender which is what fans should expect next year.

Gotya, yeah, I separate the Graveman trade from also wanting to deal big name prospects. One of the reasons I like the Graveman trade is because it looks like we upgraded a needed position without having to give up a bigger future piece.

The outfield logjam is interesting, but better to have a lot of something good. I think being in the contending position we are made it harder to go ahead and trade someone like Haniger, which may have been likely if we were 5 or 6 games under .500.

Spending might be difficult outside of starting pitcher, so it would be nice to see them spend big there. Any possibility they let Seager go and sign someone big there as well? Winter meeting trades might be big for us this year.

Ideally I hope White figures it out. I love his glove at first, and he, France, and Haniger could rotate around DH to keep their bats in the lineup.

 

[seattlefan75]

The part about Graveman being a journeyman just isn’t 100% true. Since his surgery the Mariners converted him to a bullpen arm in which he has shined with improving his velocity. Graveman’s success coming back to TJ is exactly what Jerry is banking on with Munoz and Giles next year.

Probably another reason to trade him if you have two players next year that will be in the mix for work in the bullpen then maybe trade him while he is doing well. I dont think the mariners have anyone in the minors in the next year or 2 that can come up and play the in field.

 

[seattlefan75]

Yet we won with Graveman so...

I don't think it has to do with the individuals as individuals as much as the individuals as a unit. Toro has been on fire yet we still lose. Moore and Long hit like shit yet came up a few times with winning hits. I just think you have to look beyond the individual stats and look at the makeup of it all. I mean there has to be a reason why the best team on paper every year doesn't win it, right?

One person can make a difference of a few game but if it turns into a mega fall and we start losing this isnt all about graveman the team was simply not good enough. The argument can be used in football if your QB goes down or in basketball if Lebron James was on your team but I cannot be sold that a team went on a losing team because they lost their relief pitcher.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

One person can make a difference of a few game but if it turns into a mega fall and we start losing this isnt all about graveman the team was simply not good enough. The argument can be used in football if your QB goes down or in basketball if Lebron James was on your team but I cannot be sold that a team went on a losing team because they lost their relief pitcher.

A good closer though is vital, they can impact games big time, especially the close ones …

 

[Mariners_44]

As we’ve seen in Castillo it can make or break the game, and he’s broke them since arriving.

 

[SeattleCoug]

If the team goes on this losing tear that has nothing to do with Graveman and more so what they really are as a team.

Yep this. Lets be honest with ourselves, unexpected bullpen performances is why this team is where it is. Last night the offense scored 1 run in 11 innings against a bullpen start. (not counting the second run because it was because a runner started on second)

Relying on a bullpen to be perfect isn't a realistic strategy. There have always been too many holes on this team.

 

[NWinAZ]

One person can make a difference of a few game but if it turns into a mega fall and we start losing this isnt all about graveman the team was simply not good enough. The argument can be used in football if your QB goes down or in basketball if Lebron James was on your team but I cannot be sold that a team went on a losing team because they lost their relief pitcher.

So momentum is just a fallacy? It isn't about the player himself, but the group as a whole. We had the most wins in 1 run games and I can guarantee you it was from better talent or a genius manager. They built a belief system that if they could stay close they would pull it off. That belief can carry a team a long time even a whole season. Again, that is why the best teams in sports don't always win the championships. The problem with having this belief is that if anything disturbs it and can go as fast as it came. Now we see that the same games we were winning, we are now losing. Talent hasn't changed and to say we were do to start losing because we weren't that good as BS. I don't believe n coincidences. The timing was the exact same time. Believe in the invisible power of momentum or positive thinking or whatever you want to call it or not, sports is a funny game and 2001 should remind us all that confidence as a group can do wonderful things...or the opposite.

 

[Destroydacre]

Mariners are 3-8 since trading Graveman and the bullpen has 6 blown saves. For anyone keeping track.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Im sure Graveman would have helped score more runs against a depleted Yankee pitching staff.

 

[SeattleCoug]

So momentum is just a fallacy? It isn't about the player himself, but the group as a whole. We had the most wins in 1 run games and I can guarantee you it was from better talent or a genius manager. They built a belief system that if they could stay close they would pull it off. That belief can carry a team a long time even a whole season. Again, that is why the best teams in sports don't always win the championships. The problem with having this belief is that if anything disturbs it and can go as fast as it came. Now we see that the same games we were winning, we are now losing. Talent hasn't changed and to say we were do to start losing because we weren't that good as BS. I don't believe n coincidences. The timing was the exact same time. Believe in the invisible power of momentum or positive thinking or whatever you want to call it or not, sports is a funny game and 2001 should remind us all that confidence as a group can do wonderful things...or the opposite.

This season is almost identical to what happened 3 years ago. They led the division in June and Diaz had a bunch of saves in 1 run games. Then around the allstar break or end of July things evened out. Maybe playing out a couple weeks later here but its almost the exact same thing this year. I think momentum and chemistry is important and can carry you through games and weeks. The reality is over the course of 162 games you need the talent. You have a team that's 25th in Fwar, 28th in OBP, 26th in K%. Eventually a bullpen performing above its head can only carry you so far.

 

[Cloud]

The M’s have oofed since the trade. But hey, think of it this way…. Think long term…. Like very very long. For the rest of eternity long.

 

[wazzu31]

Probably another reason to trade him if you have two players next year that will be in the mix for work in the bullpen then maybe trade him while he is doing well. I dont think the mariners have anyone in the minors in the next year or 2 that can come up and play the in field.

I get that theory and is what Jerry is banking on. But when you pencil in two of your “big arms” in the bullpen are two coming off of surgery and won’t have thrown a pitch in over a full year. Fully understand the Toro trade, but reasoning if they have replacements for him in Castillo and two dudes who Jerry doesn’t even know if they can pitch is a downgrade. So I get the deal, I just really really hate Jerry’s justification for it. I would’ve rather him told everyone to fuck off because he is the GM.

 

[wazzu31]

This season is almost identical to what happened 3 years ago. They led the division in June and Diaz had a bunch of saves in 1 run games. Then around the allstar break or end of July things evened out. Maybe playing out a couple weeks later here but its almost the exact same thing this year. I think momentum and chemistry is important and can carry you through games and weeks. The reality is over the course of 162 games you need the talent. You have a team that's 25th in Fwar, 28th in OBP, 26th in K%. Eventually a bullpen performing above its head can only carry you so far.

It is really hard to compare the two teams. This one is young, without a legitimate leader and have zero culture of winning. Diaz was the youngest guy on that team full of vets on the back house of their careers. That team got old, this team lost confidence.