GOAT QB

[Jakology]

I won't "flame" anyone, but I think it's unfair to say something like this (especially since it's impossible to substantiate).

It is, but it happens. It's just like 10 years ago when the Manning Brady argument was heating up. There were tons of people who sported that opinion. That Peyton would be doing the same, and putting up better numbers than Brady was, if he was on the Pats. But then of course Brady improved from his game manager status and became an elite regular season QB too.

 

[Jakology]

Lets just compare Super Bowl performances and just the two QB's that had great regular seasons and playoff careers with the rings:

Brady

2001 - W 16-27 145 yds 1 TD 0 INT PR - 86.2

2003 - W 32-48 354 yds 3 TD's 1 INT PR - 100.5

2004 - W 23-33 236 yds 2 TD's 0 INT PR - 110.2

2007 - L 29-48 266 yds 1 TD 0 INT PR - 82.5

2011 - L 27-41 276 yds 2 TD's 1 INT PR - 91.1

2014 - W 37-50 328 yds 4 TD's 2 INT's PR - 101.1

Record 4-2

A total of 13 passing TD's 4 INT's in 6 games.

Montana

1981 - W 14-22 157 yds 1 TD 0 INT 18 rushing yds 1 TD PR - 100.0

1984 - W 24-35 331 yds 3 TD's 0 INT 59 rushing yds 1 TD PR - 127.2

1988 - W 23-36 357 yds 2 TD's 0 INT PR - 115.2

1989 - W 22-29 297 yds 5 TD's 0 INT PR - 147.6

Record 4-0

A total of 11 passing TD's, 2 rushing TD's and 0 INT's in 4 games.

But even though Brady lost 2 times do the appearances still mean more, while Montana only made it 4 times but has a perfect record?

That's one way of looking at it, but it closes off all the other factors that go into it. I take everything into account when evaluating players. Not just wins, rings, or whatever anyone else wants to use. I believe it's a combination of every factor, and the eye test. I'm trying to think of the best way to lay this out in a full post.

 

[redseat]

How come no Johnny Football?

 

[ducky]

if Elway had played for the 49ers instead of Montana, he would have done as well or better with that supporting cast.

No way.

Elway sucked to often in the playoffs for most of his career. People forget what a choke artist he was because of the way he went out.

There are a couple of his Super Bowls games that are the worst performances in the big game ever:

14 of 38 (36%) with 3 INT's
10 of 26 (38%) with 2 INT's (against Montana)

His first SB win he didn't do much of anything that whole postseason except for the iconic dive play (still one of the greatest SB moments for any QB).

You can blame his cast and coaching for some of his regular season deficiencies. But you can't say he would have done better on those days in the most important games of his career if he just had a better cast because Elway more often than not was one of the main reasons his teams lost some of those big games.

Put Joe Cool in Denver and Denver has more rings than they do now. Put Elway in SF and they almost assuredly don't have as many rings because Elway would have laid one of his classic eggs at some point.

 

[Jakology]

Montana - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? Yes, both offensively and defensively. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. The original West Coast QB. Did he pass the eye test? Yes. One of the most accurate passers of all time.

Brady - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? For the most part yes. To a lesser extent than Montana's teams though. Was the offense centered around him? No. Not until around halfway through his career did he take over the offense. Did he pass the eye test? Yes to an extent. He struggles when it comes to downfield throws.

Peyton - Did he have a great coach and organization? Dungy was a good coach, but the Colts organization still remains to be one of the worst in the league even now without him. They can't seem to build around their star players well at all. Did he have a great supporting cast? He had some great offensive players to work with, but the Colts never built an elite defense for his entire career there. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. From his rookie year, he controlled everything. Did he pass the eye test? Yes, in every way.

Marino - Did he have a great coach and organization? Great coach yes, organization was awful, and still is to this day though. Did he have a great supporting cast? At WR? Yes. For most of his career, the rest of the team was lacking though. Was the offense centered around him? Yes, from his rookie year, he was the offense. Did he pass the eye test. Yes. The greatest pure passer the game had ever seen.

Hopefully this clears up the way I view things a bit.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

You can never get a consensus for GOAT because of all the variables, different eras, styles, etc.

Personality also comes into it. If you personally don't like a certain QB you aren't likely going to agree they are the best. Look at Cam for example, he got 48 out 50 votes for MVP this year. Why did those 2 dissenting voters not see it the way the other 48 did? Also, if they voted AFTER the SB press conference would he still get 48 votes? My bet is no. Some voters would not want him as the face of the NFL after that display and I think there are some who would change their vote to whoever they thought was a close second.

 

[Wheat]

No way.

Elway sucked to often in the playoffs for most of his career. People forget what a choke artist he was because of the way he went out.

There are a couple of his Super Bowls games that are the worst performances in the big game ever:

14 of 38 (36%) with 3 INT's
10 of 26 (38%) with 2 INT's (against Montana)

His first SB win he didn't do much of anything that whole postseason except for the iconic dive play (still one of the greatest SB moments for any QB).

You can blame his cast and coaching for some of his regular season deficiencies. But you can't say he would have done better on those days in the most important games of his career if he just had a better cast because Elway more often than not was one of the main reasons his teams lost some of those big games.

Put Joe Cool in Denver and Denver has more rings than they do now. Put Elway in SF and they almost assuredly don't have as many rings because Elway would have laid one of his classic eggs at some point.

yep, nothing like The Drive of the Drive Part Deux...

I'm thinking he either holds or held the record for the most 4th quarter comebacks for a QB.

Elway willed those early teams to the SB pretty much himself only to meet much better over all teams and got beat.

He finally gets T Davis and the cast was complete and he doesn't have to do it by himself.

And yes, I can blame Dan Reeves and anybody who knows anything about Denver back in that day would agree, sorry...

 

[Wheat]

Montana - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? Yes, both offensively and defensively. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. The original West Coast QB. Did he pass the eye test? Yes. One of the most accurate passers of all time.

Brady - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? For the most part yes. To a lesser extent than Montana's teams though. Was the offense centered around him? No. Not until around halfway through his career did he take over the offense. Did he pass the eye test? Yes to an extent. He struggles when it comes to downfield throws.

Peyton - Did he have a great coach and organization? Dungy was a good coach, but the Colts organization still remains to be one of the worst in the league even now without him. They can't seem to build around their star players well at all. Did he have a great supporting cast? He had some great offensive players to work with, but the Colts never built an elite defense for his entire career there. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. From his rookie year, he controlled everything. Did he pass the eye test? Yes, in every way.

Marino - Did he have a great coach and organization? Great coach yes, organization was awful, and still is to this day though. Did he have a great supporting cast? At WR? Yes. For most of his career, the rest of the team was lacking though. Was the offense centered around him? Yes, from his rookie year, he was the offense. Did he pass the eye test. Yes. The greatest pure passer the game had ever seen.

Hopefully this clears up the way I view things a bit.

yep, it is your opinion. no more, no less.

Thanks!

 

[Wheat]

You're going to get flamed for this one. lol. Just like I do when I say Marino would've done just as well with the 49ers as well. They were arguably the best organization in sports during that time.

yep, but its true and those that turn a blind eye to that are just wrong, in MOHO....

 

[Clayton]

yep, nothing like The Drive of the Drive Part Deux...

I'm thinking he either holds or held the record for the most 4th quarter comebacks for a QB.

Elway willed those early teams to the SB pretty much himself only to meet much better over all teams and got beat.

He finally gets T Davis and the cast was complete and he doesn't have to do it by himself.

And yes, I can blame Dan Reeves and anybody who knows anything about Denver back in that day would agree, sorry...

I think Elway is the classic example of QBs not being the reason teams win Super Bowls. I have him top 10 but T Davis was the reason more than anything and deserves to be in the HOF because of it.

But at some point people need to start giving Brady and Peyton credit for dominating in an era theoretically based around parity.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Montana - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? Yes, both offensively and defensively. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. The original West Coast QB. Did he pass the eye test? Yes. One of the most accurate passers of all time.

Brady - Did he have a great coach and organization? Yes, for his entire career. Did he have a great supporting cast? For the most part yes. To a lesser extent than Montana's teams though. Was the offense centered around him? No. Not until around halfway through his career did he take over the offense. Did he pass the eye test? Yes to an extent. He struggles when it comes to downfield throws.

Peyton - Did he have a great coach and organization? Dungy was a good coach, but the Colts organization still remains to be one of the worst in the league even now without him. They can't seem to build around their star players well at all. Did he have a great supporting cast? He had some great offensive players to work with, but the Colts never built an elite defense for his entire career there. Was the offense centered around him? Yes. From his rookie year, he controlled everything. Did he pass the eye test? Yes, in every way.

Marino - Did he have a great coach and organization? Great coach yes, organization was awful, and still is to this day though. Did he have a great supporting cast? At WR? Yes. For most of his career, the rest of the team was lacking though. Was the offense centered around him? Yes, from his rookie year, he was the offense. Did he pass the eye test. Yes. The greatest pure passer the game had ever seen.

Hopefully this clears up the way I view things a bit.

When you factor in all of that it comes down to Montana, Brady and Manning then you have to go to start looking at their success. Regular season, playoffs, then titles. So anyway you want to look at it there will be one determining factor that separates one QB from the other. I do think if Peyton had a better defense he could have won more Super Bowls but as far as the eye test the GOAT discussion including all aspects come down to Montana vs. Brady.

The thing with Brady he never had a great or even good running back. Peyton had Edgerrin James and Montana had weapons all over the field.

 

[Jakology]

yep, it is your opinion. no more, no less.

Thanks!

Yep. Just like I said in my first post in this thread, this is pointless, and everybody is just posting how they feel about it. It's very pointless unless you just enjoy the discussion, which I do honestly. It's interesting to see all the different opinions.

 

[Jakology]

When you factor in all of that it comes down to Montana, Brady and Manning then you have to go to start looking at their success.

Which is unfair for Manning since Montana and Brady both got to play in better situations. That's what I'm getting at. Both Manning and Marino played in unfair circumstances. So it isn't right to judge them based on having less playoff success.

 

[Clayton]

Which is unfair for Manning since Montana and Brady both got to play in better situations. That's what I'm getting at. Both Manning and Marino played in unfair circumstances. So it isn't right to judge them based on having less playoff success.

Manning in Indy played in unfair circumstances. Manning in Denver played in the best circumstances possible, chosen specifically by Peyton. Peyton's 2 rings are both a direct result of circumstances.

 

[Jakology]

Manning in Indy played in unfair circumstances. Manning in Denver played in the best circumstances possible, chosen specifically by Peyton. Peyton's 2 rings are both a direct result of circumstances.

I agree that both of his SB's were layups. He got to play against the worst SB QB of all time, and then he got to play with a fully loaded Bronco team where all he had to do was complete a couple 5 yard passes. That doesn't change what happened in the rest of his career though.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

To be honest, there isn't a clear cut GOAT in anything. Everybody is always going to have a different opinion. There are few people who believe that Moss was better than Rice. There are a few people like me who believe that Peyton is better than Brady and Montana. It's always going to happen. Trying to label somebody as the GOAT is just ridiculous. Even in basketball, Jordan is the standard, but there are people who argue other players. There's really just no point in having this discussion. Unless you just want to spark some convo about how people feel about certain players. If you read the thread, you'll see a wide variety of opinions.

Especially in the NFL because so much of your success or failure is tied to other players...I'm a Montana guy, but he had Rice, Taylor, Brent Jones, Craig, good OL, HOF HC, and a DEF...Brady had Randy Moss for 1 yr....as an example. Also, the modern era guys are going to have much higher passing stats...Drew Brees is going to end up top 3 all time in yards...more than twice that of Troy Aikman...now, who would I take of those two? lol no question I'm taking Aikman.

In some other sports...GOAT is a little easier...you mentioned NBA, MJ is the standard as you suggested...is Lebron a better talent? imo yes, but he's got a long way to go to unseat Jordan. Kobe?

 

[Wheat]

Yep. Just like I said in my first post in this thread, this is pointless, and everybody is just posting how they feel about it. It's very pointless unless you just enjoy the discussion, which I do honestly. It's interesting to see all the different opinions.

sorry didn't meant to demean anything you posted. bad reply on my part.

 

[Wheat]

I think Elway is the classic example of QBs not being the reason teams win Super Bowls. I have him top 10 but T Davis was the reason more than anything and deserves to be in the HOF because of it.

But at some point people need to start giving Brady and Peyton credit for dominating in an era theoretically based around parity.

Davis was the missing ingredient for Denver, no doubt, but Denver would not have won their first 2 SBs without either Elway or Davis.

And yes, TD deserves to be in the HOF, no doubt.

 

[Jakology]

Especially in the NFL because so much of your success or failure is tied to other players...I'm a Montana guy, but he had Rice, Taylor, Brent Jones, Craig, good OL, HOF HC, and a DEF...Brady had Randy Moss for 1 yr....as an example. Also, the modern era guys are going to have much higher passing stats...Drew Brees is going to end up top 3 all time in yards...more than twice that of Troy Aikman...now, who would I take of those two? lol no question I'm taking Aikman.

In some other sports...GOAT is a little easier...you mentioned NBA, MJ is the standard as you suggested...is Lebron a better talent? imo yes, but he's got a long way to go to unseat Jordan. Kobe?

Another point where we're on opposite ends. Aikman or Brees? Your answer? "lol no question I'm taking Aikman." My answer? lol no question I'm taking Brees. I find it interesting how far opinions can differ. Did we hear one word about Brees at all this year? Nope. His stat line? 68.3%, 4,870 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INTs. 101 QB rating. Truly elite numbers that very few QB's can produce. And not a single word about him being a top QB. Strange I think. I believe he's one of the forgotten gems of this generation that never gets talked about because of Peyton and Brady. And now the newer generation of QB's get more talk than he does. I find it sad.

 

[Jakology]

3 straight years over 5100 yards for Brees.....Just let that sink in....Holy fucking shit. I can guarantee you that will never happen again. That's kind of like Jerry Rice's stat line. Brees is this generation's Marino.