Giants land Angel Pagan

[SFGRTB]

I like Cabrera in the 5th spot. Assuming last years power numbers weren't a total fluke, he has plenty of sock for that spot. And when was the last time this team had a guy with any speed in the middle of the order?

I gotta add: looking at that lineup, it looks to be another year of Torture...

I do like him breaking up the lefties though in the 6th spot. I've also seen (I think it was Baggs) Cabrera in the 3 hole.

I like him 6th IMO.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

I like Cabrera in the 5th spot. Assuming last years power numbers weren't a total fluke, he has plenty of sock for that spot. And when was the last time this team had a guy with any speed in the middle of the order?

I gotta add: looking at that lineup, it looks to be another year of Torture...

I wouldn't say the one year of 18 home runs and a career average of 11 is plenty of sock for the 5th spot. I'm not sure really where he should hit in a lineup, 6th-8th is probably more appropriate.

I am hoping that Huff turns it back on reclaims the 5th spot and becomes the everyday LF :pray2: If Belt can progress like we all hope he can he'd look pretty good in the 6th spot.

Pagan -CF
Franchez -2B
Pablo -3B
Posey -C
Huff -LF
Belt -1B
Nate -RF
Crawdaddy -SS

 

[Heathbar012]

Baseball-reference would disagree. Pagan's dWAR in 2011, all in CF, was a dismal -1.7:

Angel Pagan Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Melky's 2011 dWAR was -1.9, almost all CF:

Melky Cabrera Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Could be a LONG season in CF this year.

When it comes to defense, I trust my eyes more than mathematicians. He also wasn't playing next to Nate Schiefholtz last year. Granted, he'll have to cover for Melky and Belt, but that is easier than worrying about triples' alley. There is almost nothing that Torres does better than Pagan, consistently. It's an improvement.

 

[Heathbar012]

Haha I wouldn't say he was a minor peice 68.2 IP is pretty integral - most innings of any reliever besides Mota, but as noted our BP is stocked with talent, still not easy to replace that kind of arm and hopefully it won't bite us in the ass if one or two guys get the injury bug... but I gotta say Pagan is a good pickup.

I think he's a definite upgrade over Torres or Melky.

FWIW I just spoke to a friend of mine in NY and he says that Pagan was a good player who struggled with the media out there after taking over for Beltran. He thinks he'll rebound for us.

He wasn't the closer. He wasn't the set-up man. He wasn't the closer or set-up man when Wilson went down. He isn't left-handed. He is a great relief pitcher, and instantly the Mets' go-to guy in the 7th, and possibly, 8th, but on the Giants, he is a minor piece.

You're right. He wasn't the mop-up guy (Mota), so he wasn't the smallest piece, but you aren't going to get an improvement over Torres for him and a mop-up guy. No one can argue that RamRam isn't great, but you can't argue that, in the Giants' bullpen, he wasn't expendable, either.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

He wasn't the closer. He wasn't the set-up man. He wasn't the closer or set-up man when Wilson went down. He isn't left-handed. He is a great relief pitcher, and instantly the Mets' go-to guy in the 7th, and possibly, 8th, but on the Giants, he is a minor piece.

You're right. He wasn't the mop-up guy (Mota), so he wasn't the smallest piece, but you aren't going to get an improvement over Torres for him and a mop-up guy. No one can argue that RamRam isn't great, but you can't argue that, in the Giants' bullpen, he wasn't expendable, either.

Actually in another thread I admitted that mskings was right that if you can't trade the 6th guy in the pen who the hell can you trade!
Anyway we got Pagan for him which I think is a fair trade.

Although I still disagree he was a minor piece, I love having a BP that is lights out 7th-9th (even 6th-9th) this weakens it just enough that we might have to endure Edlefsen or Runzler getting lit up in the 6th on occasion. I am leery of weakening the stongest BP in the league. I remember years and years of crappy pens and how disastrous that can be for a team - and especially would be for this team. If everyone else stays healthy and continues to pitch like they can the pen should be able to handle the departure of Ramirez if not we will miss him for sure.

I feel like I am basically repeating my last post here :typing::blabla:

 

[tzill]

Baseball-reference would disagree. Pagan's dWAR in 2011, all in CF, was a dismal -1.7:

Angel Pagan Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Melky's 2011 dWAR was -1.9, almost all CF:

Melky Cabrera Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Could be a LONG season in CF this year.

Mays, you're cherry picking or you don't understand defensive stats. It's dangerous to generalize off of one year of defensive stats b/c the variance, statistically speaking, is too large. That is, the sample size is too small to draw any valid conclusions.

That said, here are the dWAR and UZR/150 for the last three years for both players:

Pagan
2011 -1.7; -16.1
2010 +2.2; +14.9
2009 +1.3; +13.7

Cabrera
2011 -1.9; -7.2
2010 -0.5; -18.9
2009 -0.1; +1.9

Three years is generally enough to get a sense of a players defense by the stats. Pagan seems to be average/slightly above and Cabrera seems to be average/slightly below. Put Melky in a corner spot and I think he'll be fine.

Sure, CF could be a disaster, and Torres was great there, but it's not likely to be a black hole of suckissitude.

 

[Heathbar012]

Actually in another thread I admitted that mskings was right that if you can't trade the 6th guy in the pen who the hell can you trade!
Anyway we got Pagan for him which I think is a fair trade.

Although I still disagree he was a minor piece, I love having a BP that is lights out 7th-9th (even 6th-9th) this weakens it just enough that we might have to endure Edlefsen or Runzler getting lit up in the 6th on occasion. I am leery of weakening the stongest BP in the league. I remember years and years of crappy pens and how disastrous that can be for a team - and especially would be for this team. If everyone else stays healthy and continues to pitch like they can the pen should be able to handle the departure of Ramirez if not we will miss him for sure.

I feel like I am basically repeating my last post here :typing::blabla:

I got you. A major strength has been weakened, slightly, but not as much as a major weakness was strengthened. If there are many occasions where the Giants need a lights out bullpen from the 6th-9th, the injury bug has hit them once again, and no amount of RamRam would save the day.

You certainly played devil's advocate valiantly, and I like the outside-the-box thinking. Hell, I go on and on about how Any Lee and David Akers are the two most important players on the Niners. I appreciate your position, but I like the trade.

 

[msgkings322]

I got you. A major strength has been weakened, slightly, but not as much as a major weakness was strengthened. If there are many occasions where the Giants need a lights out bullpen from the 6th-9th, the injury bug has hit them once again, and no amount of RamRam would save the day.

You certainly played devil's advocate valiantly, and I like the outside-the-box thinking. Hell, I go on and on about how Any Lee and David Akers are the two most important players on the Niners. I appreciate your position, but I like the trade.

Not as crazy as it sounds. Lechler and Janikowski are for sure the most important Raiders. Although I think you have to qualify both with "non defensive" players. Patrick Willis means more than Akers or Lee.

 

[SF11704]

Living in NY and being an NL follower my only real options for 'live' baseball is the Mets. Couldn't bring myself to go to a NYY game. Just couldn't!

Anyways. I've seen Pagan play quite a few times 'live' and also watched him on network TV. He's a nice pickup. He'll give us some speed at the top of the order, a decent bat and a decent glove. I've always liked him so this trade sits OK with me. Is he worth both RamRam and Torres? At the present time - yes. If Torres returns to his 2010 form than I think he's actually better than Pagan but I think the 2010 season was the exception for Torres. I'm more inclined to think that the 2011 season defines more closely the ballplayer that he is.

 

[Heathbar012]

Not as crazy as it sounds. Lechler and Janikowski are for sure the most important Raiders. Although I think you have to qualify both with "non defensive" players. Patrick Willis means more than Akers or Lee.

I don't know, man. Larry Grant filled in pretty well last week. If Lee goes down, who places the ball inside the 20 three times a game? Patrick Willis is definitely the best football player on the team, but I don't think he is the most important.

Of course, then that opens up a debate where someone says, "You could say that about all kickers, and that is ridiculous." That is incorrect because some teams score more touchdowns and don't rely as heavily on winning the field position battle as the Niners. I hate kickers and punters more than anybody, but if Akers or Lee go down, there is no one available that can do their job as well as them. Grant is certainly not as good as P-Willy, but he has ten guys around him helping him pick up the slack.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't know, man. Larry Grant filled in pretty well last week. If Lee goes down, who places the ball inside the 20 three times a game? Patrick Willis is definitely the best football player on the team, but I don't think he is the most important.

Of course, then that opens up a debate where someone says, "You could say that about all kickers, and that is ridiculous." That is incorrect because some teams score more touchdowns and don't rely as heavily on winning the field position battle as the Niners. I hate kickers and punters more than anybody, but if Akers or Lee go down, there is no one available that can do their job as well as them. Grant is certainly not as good as P-Willy, but he has ten guys around him helping him pick up the slack.

Fair enough. You outrank me here as I'm not that dedicated a football fan, nor am I a Niners fan, although I do like them generally and like when they do well. It helps the city be in a better mood.

 

[tzill]

Not as crazy as it sounds. Lechler and Janikowski are for sure the most important Raiders. Although I think you have to qualify both with "non defensive" players. Patrick Willis means more than Akers or Lee.

Fuck the wayduhs....

 

[msgkings322]

Fuck the wayduhs....

Not my faves either, although my second faves.

I won't be introducing you to my wife I guess...she'd claw your eyes out.

 

[filosofy29]

Not my faves either, although my second faves.

I won't be introducing you to my wife I guess...she'd claw your eyes out.

I thought most girls clawed their own eyes out after meeting tz.....



I keed tz.

 

[msgkings322]

I thought most girls clawed their own eyes out after meeting tz.....



I keed tz.

BOOM goes the dynamite!

I'd rep you again but I just did...

 

[calsnowskier]

I thought most girls clawed their own eyes out after meeting tz.....



I keed tz.

I owe you a perpetual rep for that gem.

HAS to be one of the best lines ever on this board.

 

[tzill]

I thought most girls clawed their own eyes out after meeting tz.....



I keed tz.

If by "clawed their own eyes out" you mean "scheduled vaginal tightening surgery" then,

yeah, sure.

 

[CameronFrye]

He wasn't the closer. He wasn't the set-up man. He wasn't the closer or set-up man when Wilson went down. He isn't left-handed. He is a great relief pitcher, and instantly the Mets' go-to guy in the 7th, and possibly, 8th, but on the Giants, he is a minor piece.

You're right. He wasn't the mop-up guy (Mota), so he wasn't the smallest piece, but you aren't going to get an improvement over Torres for him and a mop-up guy. No one can argue that RamRam isn't great, but you can't argue that, in the Giants' bullpen, he wasn't expendable, either.

This.

As much as I will miss Andres Torres, the deal was a good one.

 

[filosofy29]

From Baggs latest blog:

The Giants aren’t ready to say that Angel Pagan will be their everyday center fielder and leadoff hitter, but that is management’s clear intention.

It’s Pagan’s intention, too.

“I was really happy with the trade,” said Pagan, on a conference call with the beat writers Thursday. “I’m going to a contending team, a great organization. If they need a leadoff man, I’ll be there.”

Pagan is the newest member of the organization. But he already understands the heart of the matter.

“The pitching staff is great. We all know that,” Pagan said. “We just need some run support so we can put those ballgames away.”

The lack of a productive leadoff man was the softest spot in the Giants’ marshmallow lineup last season, when they scored the fewest runs in the major leagues. Toward the end of his 44-game tenure as a Giant, Carlos Beltran delivered some public, unsolicited advice to the front office when he told me their first priority should be to get a legitimate No.1 hitter.

I’m not sure Beltran had his friend Pagan in mind. But when they talked earlier this year, Beltran told Pagan that he enjoyed the clubhouse experience in San Francisco.

“So I’m looking forward to spring training,” Pagan said.

Pagan didn’t often lead off for the Mets. That was Jose Reyes’ job, when healthy. But the Giants feel he has the speed, dependable contact skills (far, far fewer strikeouts than Andres Torres) and enough on-base ability to be an asset in that spot.

The Giants front office will wait until the spring to see if players like Aubrey Huff, Nate Schierholtz and Brandon Belt arrive in good condition and swing the bat well. There will be no shortage of combinations for Manager Bruce Bochy. But the more you sift through them, the more you realize that Pagan plugs in at center field most of the time.

It’ll be an automatic if Pagan has a season like 2010, when he hit .290 with a .340 on-base percentage, ripped off 47 extra-base hits and stole 37 bases.

He didn’t have that season in 2011, and blamed an oblique injury for the dropoff.

“When the injury happened, they put me on the DL. I wasn’t really happy with that,” Pagan said. “I missed 20 days and that got me out of rhythm. It was tough to find myself at the plate. It came little by little, and I was able to finish strong.”

Pagan described his leadoff philosophy as “to get on base as much as you can. If I’m the leadoff hitter, I’m going to see as many pitches as I can the first and second at-bats so my teammates can see. I love hitting with two strikes. I’m not afraid.”

As for center field, Pagan said, “I love it. You guys know center field (at Citi Field) is one of the biggest in the major leagues. I’ll be ready.”

What about the 10 errors he made last year, the second most among NL outfielders?

“Sometimes I’m too aggressive playing center field,” he said. “A ball in the gap, I’m trying to do everything to prevent a double. I had a couple throwing errors and hustling errors.”

Yet Pagan doesn’t plan to do anything differently.

“I can tell you I will stay aggressive all the time and I won’t change,” he said. “There are big gaps (in the NL West) and you want to keep guys out of scoring position.”

The Giants don’t have to worry about Pagan showing up out of shape. He’ll be motivated to produce as he approaches free agency, and he was known in New York as the best athlete on the team – even better than Reyes.

“I used to be a boxer,” said Pagan, a Puerto Rican native who laced up gloves for three years as a teenager. “You know how they train.”

Nice to see some of these things. Excited to see Pagan. I know he's no savior, but still excited to see him nonetheless.

 

[SFGRTB]

From Baggs latest blog:



Nice to see some of these things. Excited to see Pagan. I know he's no savior, but still excited to see him nonetheless.

The part you bolded, the opposite of what Torres was saying (remember the I want to hit more homeruns rant he had?), and I really like that from Pagan. I will be a really nice change of scenery if we can have at least a semi-legit leadoff hitter (like Torres was in 2010).