Fab 4: all HOFers?

[msgkings322]

Again, on what planet was Ben Wallace not a great defender given that he won DPOY 4x and led the league in defensive +/- 6x?

But that's ALL Ben was, Dray is a great defender PLUS other stuff Ben never did

 

[StanMarsh51]

He will have way more assists and steals than all of them, comparable rebounds, and more rings, and more awards.

How do you know? You're speculating on how much better Green can get and how he'll decline, with no real basis....

What on earth makes you think that Green will have comparable rebounds to Ben Wallace, or even a guy like Marcus Camby, both of whom are in that class (who for instance when Wallace for his career averaged 30% more rebounds per game?

Are you somehow expecting Green to get 30% better in rebounds and have no decline later in his career? Wishful thinking...

 

[msgkings322]

How do you know? You're speculating on how much better Green can get and how he'll decline, with no real basis....

What on earth makes you think that Green will have comparable rebounds to Ben Wallace, or even a guy like Marcus Camby, both of whom are in that class (who for instance when Wallace for his career averaged 30% more rebounds per game?

Are you somehow expecting Green to get 30% better in rebounds and have no decline later in his career? Wishful thinking...

I'm expecting his overall reaume will be better
He will lag a bit in rebounds but do better in most other categories, like vs HOFer Rodman. PLUS the college accolades which we haven't even discussed. He's getting in.

 

[Heatles84]

Again, on what planet was Ben Wallace not a great defender given that he won DPOY 4x and led the league in defensive +/- 6x?

And he may get into the HOF at some point. Ben Wallace also couldn't do anything offensively. As the 4th option on Golden St., Draymond still has far more offensive tools than Ben Wallace.

 

[Heatles84]

Ummm...Ben Wallace won it 4x (tied for the record with Mutombo).

Not to mention, if you look at their defensive +/-, Wallace led the league in it 6x....Green's done it just 1x.


Not really close defensively...

Forgot about Ben Wallace. But compared to Mason and Oakley, he was far better in that respect.

 

[flyerhawk]

KD and Steph are already in. Klay and Draymond have work to do.

Dennis Rodman is certainly the model for Draymond to follow but I would say that Rodman was an absolutely dominant defensive player in his hey day. 8X All NBA defense. Lead the league in rebounding for 7 straight years. 5 NBA titles between 2 teams.

If Draymond remains an elite defensive force for 4 or 5 more year then I can see him getting in. But if he tapers off then I think it is much less likely. Rodman played until he was almost 40.

Klay is a bit trickier to figure. He could definitely get into the Hall but I think he will need to have a really long career to do it or win a LOT of championships.

FYI, BREF has Curry as a 99% chance to make the Hall. Durant a 100% chance to make the Hall, Draymond a 14% chance and Thompson a 12% chance.

Just for comparisons sake this is their list of Hall probability leaders..

NBA & ABA Leaders and Records for Hall of Fame Probability | Basketball-Reference.com

Seems about right to me for the most part although I think Joe Johnson is way way too high and Dwight Howard is as well, although I could see Howard getting in.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I'm expecting his overall reaume will be better
He will lag a bit in rebounds but do better in most other categories, like vs HOFer Rodman. PLUS the college accolades which we haven't even discussed. He's getting in.

Hard to say, because Wallace's defense was much better than it can easily override any gap offensively that Green might have...


Just to put it in perspective, looking at their VORP (which takes into acount both offense and defense):

Wallace - 47.6 VORP
Green - 19.4 VORP

Green isn't even halfway to what Wallace did in that regards...and much of it is because Wallace was historically great defensively.


Just to add some other player VORPs to put things into perspective on where Green currently stands...

Chris Webber - 45.9 VORP
Elton Brand - 45.1 VORP
Rasheed Wallace - 37.5 VORP

 

[Heatles84]

KD and Steph are already in. Klay and Draymond have work to do.

Dennis Rodman is certainly the model for Draymond to follow but I would say that Rodman was an absolutely dominant defensive player in his hey day. 8X All NBA defense. Lead the league in rebounding for 7 straight years. 5 NBA titles between 2 teams.

If Draymond remains an elite defensive force for 4 or 5 more year then I can see him getting in. But if he tapers off then I think it is much less likely. Rodman played until he was almost 40.

Klay is a bit trickier to figure. He could definitely get into the Hall but I think he will need to have a really long career to do it or win a LOT of championships.

FYI, BREF has Curry as a 99% chance to make the Hall. Durant a 100% chance to make the Hall, Draymond a 14% chance and Thompson a 12% chance.

Just for comparisons sake this is their list of Hall probability leaders..

NBA & ABA Leaders and Records for Hall of Fame Probability | Basketball-Reference.com

Seems about right to me for the most part although I think Joe Johnson is way way too high and Dwight Howard is as well, although I could see Howard getting in.

I disagree on Klay. I agree that he still has work to do because he doesn't have the individual accolades. But I think Klay is further along than Dray on getting in given his offensive numbers. About another title or two are going to be needed to help Klay out.

 

[flyerhawk]

I disagree on Klay. I agree that he still has work to do because he doesn't have the individual accolades. But I think Klay is further along than Dray on getting in given his offensive numbers. About another title or two are going to be needed to help Klay out.

The problem for Klay is that he is a great all around player and he is a great shooter. But there are a LOT of great shooters these days.

Where would you rank Klay among active players? Top 25? Top 20? Top 15?

Realistically for a player to be a Hall of Famer they need to be a Top 10 player in the league. I would not put him in that category.

 

[tducey]

Curry and Durant all are. Not totally sure on Green or Thompson, depends on the rest of their career and how it goes.

 

[trojanfan12]

If it all ended right now. Steph and KD are in on the first ballot.

Klay is probably a 2nd ballot.

Draymond is a little harder to determine, but probably ends up just outside the hall.

When you have as many stars as the Warriors, someone is going to get less attention/credit. On the Warriors, that's Klay and Draymond and I think Draymond gets the least credit (even though, in his own way, he probably deserves the most).

Plus, Draymond seems to be the least liked among the 4 and that factors in as well. It shouldn't, but it does.

Having said that, it isn't ending right now, so I think when all is said and done, all 4 get in.

 

[msgkings322]

Hard to say, because Wallace's defense was much better than it can easily override any gap offensively that Green might have...


Just to put it in perspective, looking at their VORP (which takes into acount both offense and defense):

Wallace - 47.6 VORP
Green - 19.4 VORP

Green isn't even halfway to what Wallace did in that regards...and much of it is because Wallace was historically great defensively.


Just to add some other player VORPs to put things into perspective on where Green currently stands...

Chris Webber - 45.9 VORP
Elton Brand - 45.1 VORP
Rasheed Wallace - 37.5 VORP

Good points, he has work to do but I think he gets there with more titles and a longish career. Also, Michigan State

 

[msgkings322]

The problem for Klay is that he is a great all around player and he is a great shooter. But there are a LOT of great shooters these days.

Where would you rank Klay among active players? Top 25? Top 20? Top 15?

Realistically for a player to be a Hall of Famer they need to be a Top 10 player in the league. I would not put him in that category.

Don't forget college...

 

[flyerhawk]

Don't forget college...

They have their own Hall of Fame. Christian Laettner is in it.

 

[Mecca]

Yeah, he should get in.

 

[Mecca]

They have their own Hall of Fame. Christian Laettner is in it.

College still counts here too.

* See Bill Walton

 

[flyerhawk]

If it all ended right now. Steph and KD are in on the first ballot.

Klay is probably a 2nd ballot.

Draymond is a little harder to determine, but probably ends up just outside the hall.

When you have as many stars as the Warriors, someone is going to get less attention/credit. On the Warriors, that's Klay and Draymond and I think Draymond gets the least credit (even though, in his own way, he probably deserves the most).

Plus, Draymond seems to be the least liked among the 4 and that factors in as well. It shouldn't, but it does.

Having said that, it isn't ending right now, so I think when all is said and done, all 4 get in.

If it ended now there is no chance that Klay or Draymond make the Hall. They just don't have enough on their resumes.

That doesn't mean they won't when their careers are done. But they need more.

 

[msgkings322]

They have their own Hall of Fame. Christian Laettner is in it.

Come on you know the Basketball HOF isn't just the NBA HOF

 

[msgkings322]

College still counts here too.

* See Bill Walton

And Grant Hill

 

[flyerhawk]

College still counts here too.

* See Bill Walton

Walton is a kinda unique example insofar as he was an elite player who couldn't stay healthy. But when he was on the court he was easily a top 3 player in the league. 2 time champ. NBA MVP. Finals MVP.

I can't think of another player whose college resume was a big factor in them getting into the Hall.