Current Roster

[VASFfan]

Something just hit me. We elevated Duvall...so where's Dominguez? Is he not eligible for the Rule V draft so they just don't have to move him to the 40? Or is he simply that poor of a prospect in the eyes of the Giants that Duvall gets the slot ahead of him?

 

[tzill]

Something just hit me. We elevated Duvall...so where's Dominguez? Is he not eligible for the Rule V draft so they just don't have to move him to the 40? Or is he simply that poor of a prospect in the eyes of the Giants that Duvall gets the slot ahead of him?

Anyone who was eligible for the Rule V last year and still in the system and not on the 40 man is eligible for the Rule V this year. That would include Dominguez.

Here's the rub: if drafted, the other org has to keep a player on its 40 for the whole season or offer him back to the Gs. I'm not sure Bochy or Dominguez would stick on another teams 40 man.

 

[calsnowskier]

Anyone who was eligible for the Rule V last year and still in the system and not on the 40 man is eligible for the Rule V this year. That would include Dominguez.

Here's the rub: if drafted, the other org has to keep a player on its 40 for the whole season or offer him back to the Gs. I'm not sure Bochy or Dominguez would stick on another teams 40 man.

This is why I don't really see any of our guys as serious draft targets. The three I mentioned (and Dominguez, to be fair) are the only guys I think have any chance at all of getting taken in the draft.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Anyone who was eligible for the Rule V last year and still in the system and not on the 40 man is eligible for the Rule V this year. That would include Dominguez.

Here's the rub: if drafted, the other org has to keep a player on its 40 for the whole season or offer him back to the Gs. I'm not sure Bochy or Dominguez would stick on another teams 40 man.

That's not *quite* true. There are "major league" and "minor league" parts of the rule 5 draft. In the "major league" portion of the draft, anybody not on the 40-man roster can be drafted and must spend the entire season on the active (25-man) roster of the drafting team or be offered back to his original team. (Well, actually, the player must be put on waivers and if he passes, THEN be offered back to his old team.) All of the guys mentioned so far on this thread (Bochy, Dominguez, Parker, Galindo) fall into this category. (Guys picked in the draft can be traded freely, but the restrictions transfer to the new team.)

In the "minor league" portion of the draft, there is a "AAA" phase and a "AA" phase of the draft. For the "AAA" part, anybody not on a team's 40-man roster AND not on the Triple-A reserve roster (of 38 guys) is eligible to be taken. In the Double-A phase of the draft, teams may select any player left off the major league roster, the Triple-A reserve roster or the Double-A reserve roster (of 37 guys). In the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft, players are not required to remain on a particular roster - the player’s contract is irrevocably assigned to the drafting team. Since a player selected in the Triple-A phase does not rank among a team’s top 78 talents, and a Double-A selection does not rank among its top 115, the pickings in the minor league portion are pretty slim. The minor league portion is generally used to fill out minor league rosters, not to get actual/future MLB-caliber talent. I would expect Bochy, Dominguez, Parker to be on the AAA reserve roster. I'm not sure if Galindo is eligible to be on the AA reserve roster, having played in Augusta all year.

Also, since a player must remain on the 25-man roster all year (and thus the 40-man as well), a team with a full 40-man roster probably isn't going to be participating in the major league portion of the draft (and may even be precluded from doing so, I'm not sure.)

All that being said, I can see a small market (or small payroll) team taking a flier on Bochy - I expect him to be taken in the major league portion of the draft. He's being groomed to be a closer, he can easily fill a roster spot in the bullpen in middle relief for the Astros, Marlins, Padres or the A's. Don't expect him to be a Giant next year. Since they didn't protect him, Bochy may be the trade bait used to get a LF in trade.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Concerning my comment : Guys picked in the draft can be traded freely, but the restrictions transfer to the new team.

A couple of years ago, the first team to draft picked a guy and IMMEDIATELY (before the end of the day) traded him to another team for a cash payout. Obviously the fix was in. That could happen with Bochy, but I don't expect it since the Astros and the Marlins are the teams that pick first and second and either would love to have Bochy (min salary, possible star closer or set-up guy, they don't care if they win in 2014 as they are re-building to make a run in 2015-2018).

 

[VASFfan]

Concerning my comment : Guys picked in the draft can be traded freely, but the restrictions transfer to the new team.

A couple of years ago, the first team to draft picked a guy and IMMEDIATELY (before the end of the day) traded him to another team for a cash payout. Obviously the fix was in. That could happen with Bochy, but I don't expect it since the Astros and the Marlins are the teams that pick first and second and either would love to have Bochy (min salary, possible star closer or set-up guy, they don't care if they win in 2014 as they are re-building to make a run in 2015-2018).

Now see, THAT is what sort of bugs me about this..."possible star closer or set-up guy". Why on earth would they NOT put that kind of guy on the 40, when they've got guys like Rosario or Machi or Mijares or Kontos on the 40? They're all useful guys, to varying degrees, but they're all journeymen, not "possible stars". Or what the hell, why promote Strickland to the 40 when he's got to be maybe a year away before he's able to pitch competitively again?

 

[tzill]

That's not *quite* true. There are "major league" and "minor league" parts of the rule 5 draft. In the "major league" portion of the draft, anybody not on the 40-man roster can be drafted and must spend the entire season on the active (25-man) roster of the drafting team or be offered back to his original team. (Well, actually, the player must be put on waivers and if he passes, THEN be offered back to his old team.) All of the guys mentioned so far on this thread (Bochy, Dominguez, Parker, Galindo) fall into this category. (Guys picked in the draft can be traded freely, but the restrictions transfer to the new team.)

In the "minor league" portion of the draft, there is a "AAA" phase and a "AA" phase of the draft. For the "AAA" part, anybody not on a team's 40-man roster AND not on the Triple-A reserve roster (of 38 guys) is eligible to be taken. In the Double-A phase of the draft, teams may select any player left off the major league roster, the Triple-A reserve roster or the Double-A reserve roster (of 37 guys). In the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft, players are not required to remain on a particular roster - the player’s contract is irrevocably assigned to the drafting team. Since a player selected in the Triple-A phase does not rank among a team’s top 78 talents, and a Double-A selection does not rank among its top 115, the pickings in the minor league portion are pretty slim. The minor league portion is generally used to fill out minor league rosters, not to get actual/future MLB-caliber talent. I would expect Bochy, Dominguez, Parker to be on the AAA reserve roster. I'm not sure if Galindo is eligible to be on the AA reserve roster, having played in Augusta all year.

Also, since a player must remain on the 25-man roster all year (and thus the 40-man as well), a team with a full 40-man roster probably isn't going to be participating in the major league portion of the draft (and may even be precluded from doing so, I'm not sure.)

All that being said, I can see a small market (or small payroll) team taking a flier on Bochy - I expect him to be taken in the major league portion of the draft. He's being groomed to be a closer, he can easily fill a roster spot in the bullpen in middle relief for the Astros, Marlins, Padres or the A's. Don't expect him to be a Giant next year. Since they didn't protect him, Bochy may be the trade bait used to get a LF in trade.

Great post, Marco. Can you walk me through how Bochy can be used as a trade chip if another team drafts him? There's a timing issue here I don't quite get.

 

[tzill]

Now see, THAT is what sort of bugs me about this..."possible star closer or set-up guy". Why on earth would they NOT put that kind of guy on the 40, when they've got guys like Rosario or Machi or Mijares or Kontos on the 40? They're all useful guys, to varying degrees, but they're all journeymen, not "possible stars". Or what the hell, why promote Strickland to the 40 when he's got to be maybe a year away before he's able to pitch competitively again?

I don't think, and more importantly the Giants don't think, Bochy is "star" quality. Machi/Mijares/Kontos all have done something at the ML level and thus have value Bochy does not. So, if Bochy isn't star quality, and has little trade value, why would you keep him above guys who've proven they can hang in the bigs?

 

[calsnowskier]

Now see, THAT is what sort of bugs me about this..."possible star closer or set-up guy". Why on earth would they NOT put that kind of guy on the 40, when they've got guys like Rosario or Machi or Mijares or Kontos on the 40? They're all useful guys, to varying degrees, but they're all journeymen, not "possible stars". Or what the hell, why promote Strickland to the 40 when he's got to be maybe a year away before he's able to pitch competitively again?

Because the Giants brass knows their inventory better than we do.

Bochy has shown to be a glass arm, so he is a major risk. He MAY turn out to be a stud. He MAY blow out his arm (again) in May and never throw another pitch.

If we end up losing Bochy, I don't think it is a huge loss to the org. Remember how pissed people were when the Giants lost Joe Patterson in the Rule V? How has he turned out? How about when we lost Ben Snyder? We ended up trading his rights to the Rangers in exchange for Edwin Escobar. That ended up pretty good for us, I think.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Great post, Marco. Can you walk me through how Bochy can be used as a trade chip if another team drafts him? There's a timing issue here I don't quite get.

I meant that the Giants might trade him (throw him in as part of a trade) before the rule 5 draft.

Once another team drafts him, he belongs to the other team. The OTHER team can immediately trade him to any other team. Say, a team far down in the draft really wants him (like the RedSox), and calls the Astros front office and offers them $100,000 in trade for Bochy if they take him in the rule 5 draft.

 

[calsnowskier]

I meant that the Giants might trade him (throw him in as part of a trade) before the rule 5 draft.

Once another team drafts him, he belongs to the other team. The OTHER team can immediately trade him to any other team. Say, a team far down in the draft really wants him (like the RedSox), and calls the Astros front office and offers them $100,000 in trade for Bochy if they take him in the rule 5 draft.

Or, as I mentioned earlier, the Astro's can draft him for themselves, and work out a trade with the Giants to keep him without having to keep him on their 25. Like what happened with Ben Snyder and Texas a few years back. They drafted Snyder, then sent us Escobar in exchange for them being able to keep him and not have him on their 25.

 

[tzill]

I meant that the Giants might trade him (throw him in as part of a trade) before the rule 5 draft.

Once another team drafts him, he belongs to the other team. The OTHER team can immediately trade him to any other team. Say, a team far down in the draft really wants him (like the RedSox), and calls the Astros front office and offers them $100,000 in trade for Bochy if they take him in the rule 5 draft.

Gotcha. when is the draft?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Gotcha. when is the draft?

This year, Dec 12th.

 

[VASFfan]

I don't think, and more importantly the Giants don't think, Bochy is "star" quality. Machi/Mijares/Kontos all have done something at the ML level and thus have value Bochy does not. So, if Bochy isn't star quality, and has little trade value, why would you keep him above guys who've proven they can hang in the bigs?

"Done something" doesn't necessarily equate to having significant value. Seriously...as I said, Kontos et al. have some value but their collective ceilings are pretty low. If Bochy's ceiling is ABOVE theirs, what does it matter if he's never been on the big league roster?

But put that aside. Let's assume that the Giants feel Bochy's ceiling doesn't match the other guys you listed. That still leaves Strickland. They put HIM on the 40, and he's got a bum arm. AND he was only pitching in San Jose. Why put him on the 40 and not Bochy? Even if they feel his potential, pre-injury, was above Bochy's, I'm not seeing how you put a guy coming off of fairly recent Tommy John surgery on a 40 man roster.

Having these sorts of discussions sometimes feel like a waste of time, since none of us have access to the information the Giants have, we're not the decision makers, etc. But as someone on the outside, some of the decisions just seem curious and makes me wish that I DID better understand the rationale of the front office.

 

[tzill]

"Done something" doesn't necessarily equate to having significant value. Seriously...as I said, Kontos et al. have some value but their collective ceilings are pretty low. If Bochy's ceiling is ABOVE theirs, what does it matter if he's never been on the big league roster?

But put that aside. Let's assume that the Giants feel Bochy's ceiling doesn't match the other guys you listed. That still leaves Strickland. They put HIM on the 40, and he's got a bum arm. AND he was only pitching in San Jose. Why put him on the 40 and not Bochy? Even if they feel his potential, pre-injury, was above Bochy's, I'm not seeing how you put a guy coming off of fairly recent Tommy John surgery on a 40 man roster.

Having these sorts of discussions sometimes feel like a waste of time, since none of us have access to the information the Giants have, we're not the decision makers, etc. But as someone on the outside, some of the decisions just seem curious and makes me wish that I DID better understand the rationale of the front office.

That's the thing -- they don't think Bochy does have a particularly high ceiling. Best case scenario he's a Kontos. We already have Kontos on the roster. He doesn't throw particularly hard, and his stats have declined the higher he's gone in the minors. I'd bet he goes undrafted.

Re: Strickland -- they're in LOVE with this guy. They think he's a future closer. He had a dominant year in SJ (granted only 20 IP, but still). He's 6-6 with + control and now features a secondary K pitch. He hit 94 this year in SJ. Obviously, as you say, they have a TON more info on him than we do and feel that he's a sleeper prospect. I don't think there's any way Strickland would go undrafted.

 

[VASFfan]

Because the Giants brass knows their inventory better than we do.

Bochy has shown to be a glass arm, so he is a major risk. He MAY turn out to be a stud. He MAY blow out his arm (again) in May and never throw another pitch.

If we end up losing Bochy, I don't think it is a huge loss to the org. Remember how pissed people were when the Giants lost Joe Patterson in the Rule V? How has he turned out? How about when we lost Ben Snyder? We ended up trading his rights to the Rangers in exchange for Edwin Escobar. That ended up pretty good for us, I think.

Yes, he may blow his arm out again. I had considered that possibility as an explanation for the Giants decision. Then by that rationale, why did we put Strickland on the 40? So far as we know, Bochy is CURRENTLY healthy. Strickland is at BEST a question mark given that he is recovering from major surgery, AND he has yet to prove himself above high A. Strictly on the merits as an outside observer, this one in my mind doesn't quite add up. But I guess I'll just have to take their decision on faith and hopefully it all works out for the best.

BTW, throwing out the Paterson/Snyder examples isn't particularly persuasive. Yes, I remember them both. Never quite understood why, in spite of his success in the low to mid minors, the organization never seemed to really have much faith in Paterson. Even so, I thought the reactions at the time were a bit over the top about both of them, especially with regard to Snyder. Though I did wonder about trading him for some nobody in the low minors....which maybe shows how much I know! Or, more to the point, shows how much the Giants DO know. But if we want to cite examples about transactions the Giants made that worked well, we could also cite specific examples where the result wasn't so successful. Long term trends are more compelling, in my view, and I think in that regard Sabean and company can generally be quite content with their track record. They haven't been perfect, but they've done pretty well and MUST have done something right to have led the team to two championships.

 

[tzill]

Yes, he may blow his arm out again. I had considered that possibility as an explanation for the Giants decision. Then by that rationale, why did we put Strickland on the 40? So far as we know, Bochy is CURRENTLY healthy. Strickland is at BEST a question mark given that he is recovering from major surgery, AND he has yet to prove himself above high A. Strictly on the merits as an outside observer, this one in my mind doesn't quite add up. But I guess I'll just have to take their decision on faith and hopefully it all works out for the best.

BTW, throwing out the Paterson/Snyder examples isn't particularly persuasive. Yes, I remember them both. Never quite understood why, in spite of his success in the low to mid minors, the organization never seemed to really have much faith in Paterson. Even so, I thought the reactions at the time were a bit over the top about both of them, especially with regard to Snyder. Though I did wonder about trading him for some nobody in the low minors....which maybe shows how much I know! Or, more to the point, shows how much the Giants DO know. But if we want to cite examples about transactions the Giants made that worked well, we could also cite specific examples where the result wasn't so successful. Long term trends are more compelling, in my view, and I think in that regard Sabean and company can generally be quite content with their track record. They haven't been perfect, but they've done pretty well and MUST have done something right to have led the team to two championships.

IIRC, there was some douche on the Disney board who KILLED SabeySabes for the Garko/Scott Barnes trade. Dude wouldn't let it go, saying Barnes was a future closer, etc.

So far, it seems Sabes knew a little more than he did. Then again, Barnes is only 24 and may turn out to be serviceable.

 

[VASFfan]

IIRC, there was some douche on the Disney board who KILLED SabeySabes for the Garko/Scott Barnes trade. Dude wouldn't let it go, saying Barnes was a future closer, etc.

So far, it seems Sabes knew a little more than he did. Then again, Barnes is only 24 and may turn out to be serviceable.

We could all be hip deep in prospects that one or more of us thought would make it but didn't. I didn't go ballistic or anything like the guy you cite, but I WAS one who thought, wow, this may come back to bite us in the butt. I really thought Barnes could be, well, not a stud, but something really good. Hasn't worked out that way, at least not yet. You can add Barnes to my list of other guys who I thought might make the big league roster one day and be serviceable at least, but who didn't work out...Thomas Neal, for instance, leaps to mind. I thought he'd be nothing more than a 4th OF for us, but that's nothing to sneeze at. But for whatever reason, he's had a hard time even getting a cup of coffee in the bigs.

I follow the Giants minor league teams pretty closely but given where I live I don't actually see any of them. (Though if I were ambitious enough, I could hop in the car and drive a couple of hours and see the Richmond team.) And you can study stats and splits and the whole nine yards, and see how a guy progresses as he moves up the minor league ladder, but it's nothing compared to seeing a guy live and breathe and talk and think and PLAY the game, like the Giants staff do. So, personally, I try to take with a grain of salt what I think I "know".

 

[calsnowskier]

We could all be hip deep in prospects that one or more of us thought would make it but didn't. I didn't go ballistic or anything like the guy you cite, but I WAS one who thought, wow, this may come back to bite us in the butt. I really thought Barnes could be, well, not a stud, but something really good. Hasn't worked out that way, at least not yet. You can add Barnes to my list of other guys who I thought might make the big league roster one day and be serviceable at least, but who didn't work out...Thomas Neal, for instance, leaps to mind. I thought he'd be nothing more than a 4th OF for us, but that's nothing to sneeze at. But for whatever reason, he's had a hard time even getting a cup of coffee in the bigs.

I follow the Giants minor league teams pretty closely but given where I live I don't actually see any of them. (Though if I were ambitious enough, I could hop in the car and drive a couple of hours and see the Richmond team.) And you can study stats and splits and the whole nine yards, and see how a guy progresses as he moves up the minor league ladder, but it's nothing compared to seeing a guy live and breathe and talk and think and PLAY the game, like the Giants staff do. So, personally, I try to take with a grain of salt what I think I "know".

Are you the VA fan that posts on Dr B's site? If so, welcome aboard...

If not, well...

 

[SFGRTB]

Javy's deal official.

Mijares outrighted to AAA, he'll elect free agency.