Coffee Talk V: The Final Battle

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Anyway, is it time to burn the Queen yet? Get these English inbreds off my money and constitution already.

 

[scoutyjones2]

I have no idea what this is getting at

 

[forty_three]

People are making the case for low-skill jobs to be paid “living wages” and at the same time saying it costs too much to live in many places while ignoring the inflationary reaction such a move would create (as they usually do because most activists don’t exactly understand how an economy works).

I agree that minimum wage should be brought up to a reasonable level and pegged to inflation. I also think a realization needs to be made that we shouldn’t be paying the McDonalds workers as much as some skilled labourers.

It stands to reason that if the bottom level of wages goes up, all the others will also doesn't it?

Skilled laborers and college graduates should also be being paid more than they are now as well. That's kind of the point. When a CEO makes on average 270 dollars for every dollar the average worker makes, it shows the system can more equitable across the board. Not easy, but standing around complaining something is too hard isn't taking steps to fix it. A 15 min wage across the board ain't perfect, but it's a step.

 

[thedddd]

BK is trying to get more Female chefs per additional tweets but this might have been the wrong way to start a conversation.
Yeah shock value to get folks to notice, but people only take the headline and not the content.

 

[thedddd]

Ouch this is beyond awful.

 

[scoutyjones2]

It stands to reason that if the bottom level of wages goes up, all the others will also doesn't it?

Skilled laborers and college graduates should also be being paid more than they are now as well. That's kind of the point. When a CEO makes on average 270 dollars for every dollar the average worker makes, it shows the system can more equitable across the board. Not easy, but standing around complaining something is too hard isn't taking steps to fix it. A 15 min wage across the board ain't perfect, but it's a step.

No. It doesn't stand to reason that all wages will go up. If there is one thing corporate america has learned the past few years, they can operate very lean and make more profits. Doing more with less...

And we all already recognize the huge, and growing, disparity between CEO's and fronline workers. That isn't going to change.

Your definition of equitable is not my definition of equitable. We just won't agree that a $15 mandate is the way to do move the needle.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

It stands to reason that if the bottom level of wages goes up, all the others will also doesn't it?

Skilled laborers and college graduates should also be being paid more than they are now as well. That's kind of the point. When a CEO makes on average 270 dollars for every dollar the average worker makes, it shows the system can more equitable across the board. Not easy, but standing around complaining something is too hard isn't taking steps to fix it. A 15 min wage across the board ain't perfect, but it's a step.

1) Yes it does, which will cause the price of everything else to go up, which will make the "bottom level of wages" seem low again. Rinse, repeat.

2) Skilled labourers make a lot. At least in Canada. Source: Been one, currently employ them. And it's not even so much a union/non-union divide - back in Toronto my company is a union shop and here in BC we aren't. We don't provide a pension to the guys here but we pay over the typical wages in Ontario so they can create their own RRSP's etc. I've never known a dedicated skilled trade or labourer in the 15 years I've been doing this who isn't making more than enough to support a family on their own 5 years into their careers.

The biggest problem is a lack of people in the trades which is in both of our countries the biggest failure of our education systems, the idea that trades are a "fallback" or undesirable compared to sitting at a desk aiming to hopefully someday achieve a middle-management position. Thank god we make these kids take fucking art class 8 times instead of exploring if maybe they'd be more interested in welding!

 

[KennyBanyeah]

No....they shouldn't be choked out. Minimum wage jobs aren't supposed to be living wage jobs. Sorry. That's how I feel. And why are you having kids making minimum wage?

I am a firm believer in free complete health care (medical, dental, optical) and schooling (not unlimited professional student thought)...do away with most other support structures since you would basically need to make enough to house/feed yourself and you could better your life via schooling.

I am against mandating minimum wage at $15.

And yes, I've seen FL, AL, and KS...I would never live there...and cost of living is different.

Sometimes people have kids for the wrong reasons. Some people make bad decisions. Some people are fucked up. It happens.

It doesn't mean their kids should be condemned to abject poverty because the parents are deadbeats. Keeping children in poverty from birth is basically a class system. The wage gap in some US states has them trending more towards being India (circa 1970) than it does Norway.

You can believe in free education and healthcare all you want, but until it's a reality a non-living wage just perpetuates poverty, sickness and crime.

And for those lamenting that skilled workers only get $15/hr (which is fucking nothing as far as I'm concerned), support unions. Most trade unions have an established pay schedule that at least tries to ensure that skilled and experienced workers are properly compensated.

 

[dash]

FWIW, BC is raising the minimum wage to $15.20 an hour in June of this year. That's still not a livable wage in the lower mainland of BC (unless you have three roommates). Victoria has become almost as crazy as Vancouver as far as housing prices are concerned which is why we're seeing a migration of folks to the Cowichan Valley (which has both positives and negatives).

 

[forty_three]

1) Yes it does, which will cause the price of everything else to go up, which will make the "bottom level of wages" seem low again. Rinse, repeat.

2) Skilled labourers make a lot. At least in Canada. Source: Been one, currently employ them. And it's not even so much a union/non-union divide - back in Toronto my company is a union shop and here in BC we aren't. We don't provide a pension to the guys here but we pay over the typical wages in Ontario so they can create their own RRSP's etc. I've never known a dedicated skilled trade or labourer in the 15 years I've been doing this who isn't making more than enough to support a family on their own 5 years into their careers.

The biggest problem is a lack of people in the trades which is in both of our countries the biggest failure of our education systems, the idea that trades are a "fallback" or undesirable compared to sitting at a desk aiming to hopefully someday achieve a middle-management position. Thank god we make these kids take fucking art class 8 times instead of exploring if maybe they'd be more interested in welding!

1) Fair point. Be that as it may, I think ignoring it is essentially allowing certain people to starve and never get a chance to get out because finding a way to fix it is too hard.

2) There is a bit of a disparity between how jobs are viewed in Canada vs the US. Plus Canada has other safety nets in place to give people chances to help themselves. The US does nothing for the working poor besides counting on their votes by scaring them into believing Mexicans are going to steal their guns to abort a baby at a gay wedding.

You say that a skilled laborer makes enough to support a family after five years, and that's great. But how do they get to the point where they know what to do? They have to learn somewhere. You say schools don't help with that (and they sure as hell don't do it down here either), so they have to get that training somehwere else. Which would mean time and money to pay for classes. Well, if you are working 3 jobs and you barely make enough money to live on your own or feed yourself, how on earth are you going to find the time and money to get the training you need to get one of those better jobs?

 

[forty_three]

It doesn't mean their kids should be condemned to abject poverty because the parents are deadbeats. Keeping children in poverty from birth is basically a class system. The wage gap in some US states has them trending more towards being India (circa 1970) than it does Norway.

You can believe in free education and healthcare all you want, but until it's a reality a non-living wage just perpetuates poverty, sickness and crime.

And for those lamenting that skilled workers only get $15/hr (which is fucking nothing as far as I'm concerned), support unions. Most trade unions have an established pay schedule that at least tries to ensure that skilled and experienced workers are properly compensated.

My "real American Hero" police officer father stopped paying alimony and child support because he knew no one would make him until a few years of lawyer fighting went by and they let him "settle" for a fraction of what he owed (lots of which went to the lawyers, of course). My mom grew up in the 50's and never had a college degree, and thus no real skills to get a job in the 80's to support us, so between ages of 13 and 18, we were on welfare and lived in section 8 housing. Mom worked 3 jobs and as soon as I could I worked 2 different jobs 4 days a week after school and weekends (Bike shop and Hardee's. Also worked as a lifeguard in summer when not in school). And back then, I only had to work 2 hours to earn enough money to fill my car up. My responsibility was groceries (beyond the govt surplus food we got) and utilities. We barely made it until I got sponsored for BMX and made 20 grand the summer I turned 18. Then I got a job in a record store at 19 and was a manager by 20 and district manager by 23.

The 6.75 I made back then translates to 16.68 now.

 

[scoutyjones2]

1) Fair point. Be that as it may, I think ignoring it is essentially allowing certain people to starve and never get a chance to get out because finding a way to fix it is too hard.

2) There is a bit of a disparity between how jobs are viewed in Canada vs the US. Plus Canada has other safety nets in place to give people chances to help themselves. The US does nothing for the working poor besides counting on their votes by scaring them into believing Mexicans are going to steal their guns to abort a baby at a gay wedding.

You say that a skilled laborer makes enough to support a family after five years, and that's great. But how do they get to the point where they know what to do? They have to learn somewhere. You say schools don't help with that (and they sure as hell don't do it down here either), so they have to get that training somehwere else. Which would mean time and money to pay for classes. Well, if you are working 3 jobs and you barely make enough money to live on your own or feed yourself, how on earth are you going to find the time and money to get the training you need to get one of those better jobs?

Student loans. I paid for my school as I went. Worked 2 jobs and went to school.

Took time but it was worth it. Also, apply for aid, scholarships, take out some loans...plethora of choices and avenues.

 

[scoutyjones2]

Sometimes people have kids for the wrong reasons. Some people make bad decisions. Some people are fucked up. It happens.

It doesn't mean their kids should be condemned to abject poverty because the parents are deadbeats. Keeping children in poverty from birth is basically a class system. The wage gap in some US states has them trending more towards being India (circa 1970) than it does Norway.

You can believe in free education and healthcare all you want, but until it's a reality a non-living wage just perpetuates poverty, sickness and crime.

And for those lamenting that skilled workers only get $15/hr (which is fucking nothing as far as I'm concerned), support unions. Most trade unions have an established pay schedule that at least tries to ensure that skilled and experienced workers are properly compensated.

I'm not condemning their kids...I'm condemning the people who put them in these fucked up situations. The more you bail it out, the more it continues.

Let the community focus/foces (churches and outreach...today it's having one of those fucking go fuck me pages for everything) on the needs of their community.

Non-living wage for a mindless menial task is wrong in my eyes. No incentive to better yourself. Also, paying the unemployed an extra $400 a week is also taking incentive away from taking a job. Money should have gone directly to the landlords to pay their rent/mortgage.

 

[elocomotive]

1) Yes it does, which will cause the price of everything else to go up, which will make the "bottom level of wages" seem low again. Rinse, repeat.

Incomplete argument. Yes, the rise of the minimum wage will move the inflation needle up somewhat, but nowhere close to what a significant raise in the minimum wage would do to improve the purchasing power and livability of those in the lower/working class. So it's not remotely a one-for-one argument even though many conservatives ACT like that is what will happen. No economic data bears that out because (1) wages are only one part of cost (rent/property, equipment, waste, etc) are all factors as well, (2) minimum and lower/middle wage jobs are only part of the economy, and (3) higher wages can sometimes increase efficiency.

I'm glad some of you are supportive of healthcare and some other related initiatives, but the fact is on the national level, Republicans are not.

They don't want people to have healthcare. They don't want to increase minimum wage (ever!). They don't want to provide guaranteed basic income. They want to cut food stamps and employment support. They want to subject you to tests and absurd policies to get those meager scraps which basically punishes poor people. They then make sure to spend extra on the police in your neighborhood not to solve the problems, but to police the inevitable crime that comes from setting up these conditions. They mostly want you to not pay attention to these things and be made at Christmas being under attack (it's not) or some tiny section of society that might play of the "wrong" sports team. Because that's certainly more important than the basic building blocks of like like food, shelter, and healthcare. And if you protest by taking a knee for all that you go through... oh no no no.... that's too far, poor people!

They do this all in the name of false arguments (1) that these policies are "job killing job killers" even though most of Europe has these policies and they are pretty damn effective/happy/safer and (2) that making people earn these things is better than "feeding the rats who will only come back for more" or some similarly ghoulish (and often racist) analogy.

The trouble with those arguments is they are NOT supported by data and based ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY on fear-mongering bullshit.

If you all want to regurgitate the talking points of Ted Cruz, be my guest. But he's wrong. And he's also an asshole. That's not a great combo.

But you can't continue to have a society that easily bails out businesses when they fail, lose all their money, etc. and doesn't actually protect the FUCKING PEOPLE in the same situations. We have lousy outcomes as a society for class structure and basic support systems for people. Establishing a better minimum wage is one part of a number of things long overdue for a complete overhaul/change.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I'm not condemning their kids...I'm condemning the people who put them in these fucked up situations. The more you bail it out, the more it continues.

Let the community focus/foces (churches and outreach...today it's having one of those fucking go fuck me pages for everything) on the needs of their community.

Non-living wage for a mindless menial task is wrong in my eyes. No incentive to better yourself. Also, paying the unemployed an extra $400 a week is also taking incentive away from taking a job. Money should have gone directly to the landlords to pay their rent/mortgage.

You might not be condemning them morally but make no mistake, the kids WILL suffer from their parents poverty.

And I agree, non-living wage for a menial task IS wrong. That's my point. That's all some people are capable of and it beats having them unemployed.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

1) Fair point. Be that as it may, I think ignoring it is essentially allowing certain people to starve and never get a chance to get out because finding a way to fix it is too hard.

2) There is a bit of a disparity between how jobs are viewed in Canada vs the US. Plus Canada has other safety nets in place to give people chances to help themselves. The US does nothing for the working poor besides counting on their votes by scaring them into believing Mexicans are going to steal their guns to abort a baby at a gay wedding.

You say that a skilled laborer makes enough to support a family after five years, and that's great. But how do they get to the point where they know what to do? They have to learn somewhere. You say schools don't help with that (and they sure as hell don't do it down here either), so they have to get that training somehwere else. Which would mean time and money to pay for classes. Well, if you are working 3 jobs and you barely make enough money to live on your own or feed yourself, how on earth are you going to find the time and money to get the training you need to get one of those better jobs?

So most skilled trades have apprenticeship programs that pay and allow you to collect employment insurance when you leave to do school modules (usually a semester a year is what's needed for the more complicated trades like electrical and plumbing).

Biggest problem is awareness and getting kids into those programs, which goes back to the issue at the grade schooling level.

And FWIW there's still an issue with how those jobs are viewed in Canada. People who look down on those "without college degrees". It's dumb.

 

[elocomotive]

... And back then, I only had to work 2 hours to earn enough money to fill my car up. My responsibility was groceries (beyond the govt surplus food we got) and utilities. We barely made it until I got sponsored for BMX and made 20 grand the summer I turned 18. Then I got a job in a record store at 19 and was a manager by 20 and district manager by 23.

Who would have thought back then that a couple decades later being a full-time BMXer would be a job and working as a manager in a record store would not.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Incomplete argument. Yes, the rise of the minimum wage will move the inflation needle up somewhat, but nowhere close to what a significant raise in the minimum wage would do to improve the purchasing power and livability of those in the lower/working class. And rent is based on property tax so it wouldn't be effected. And food is often not taxed or taxed at a low rate. So it's not remotely a one-for-one argument even though many conservatives ACT like that is what will happen. No economic data bears that out because (1) wages are only one part of cost (rent/property, equipment, waste, etc) are all factors as well, (2) minimum and lower/middle wage jobs are only part of the economy, and (3) higher wages can sometimes increase efficiency.

I believe the differences across the border means the inflationary needle won't move up as much in most places as it would here, mostly because you still have a lot of relatively cheap places to live. Canada does have some but unlike the US there wasn't much of a wave of people going to those places and even now with Covid having made people more open to the idea the reality is most new immigrants and internal relocations are still going to want to live in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and those cities are where minimum wage increases are both 1) needed and 2) going to increase unaffordability.

Construction already costs a fortune in Toronto and Vancouver, they can't keep up with demand for affordable housing, and because of policies designed to "create better cities" they're making automotive mobility in areas marked for intensification harder or, in some cases, downright impossible. The result? Increased material costs, increased labour costs, slower progress. And that's just construction, that's not mentioning supply chains for grocery stores or other delivery-necessary businesses. Throwing another significant inflationary log on that bonfire will make the average home prices in those places $2 million in a decade. It's already heading there but at least slowing it gives politicians some more time to figure out WTF to do.

 

[scoutyjones2]

You might not be condemning them morally but make no mistake, the kids WILL suffer from their parents poverty.

And I agree, non-living wage for a menial task IS wrong. That's my point. That's all some people are capable of and it beats having them unemployed.

Oh, I agree...we need people to do menial tasks. That's what teenagers are/were for when I was growing up...not a career. And yes, there are always those that will only attain a certain level.

I have no issue with support for people with kids, but they will have to sign away their fertility.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I'm not condemning their kids...I'm condemning the people who put them in these fucked up situations. The more you bail it out, the more it continues.

Let the community focus/foces (churches and outreach...today it's having one of those fucking go fuck me pages for everything) on the needs of their community.

Non-living wage for a mindless menial task is wrong in my eyes. No incentive to better yourself. Also, paying the unemployed an extra $400 a week is also taking incentive away from taking a job. Money should have gone directly to the landlords to pay their rent/mortgage.

It's not that black and white though. My dad was a skilled union laborer and a veteran. He made a good middle-class salary and for many years had his little slice of the American dream. To do it he worked in some of the harshest conditions (outside in Buffalo winters), around some seriously dangerous shit at chemical factories (and at one point inside the highest security area of Attica Prison), and in some scary/dangerous areas like hanging in a harness from the side of a smokestack or crawling through a 2 ft x 2 ft tunnel under industrial sized chemical tanks. But he did it and he did it well because it kept food on the table and a roof over our heads.

But then, 20+ years on, his field began to dry up through no fault of his own. He was also older and more experienced than the new guys (i.e., more skilled but also more expensive) and his share of the work dried up. So he was suddenly a guy staring down 50, a master in a skilled trade, and out of work.

So he turned to various jobs, many of which were minimum or barely above, just to keep us above water until he could find a new profession, and worked 70 hours a week (plus odd jobs for friends/neighbors where he could).

We never went hungry, but the quality of what we got to eat certainly declined and there were multiple years where my parents had to explain there wouldn't be Christmas (we were past the Santa believing age) or birthday presents.

And I know we were STILL the lucky ones because we didn't lose our house only because of an extended family member who was able to help out (which, BTW, agreeing to accept that help was only the second time I remember seeing my dad cry, the first being his mother's funeral).

And you know what, I don't really know how to end this post or to wrap it up in a good conclusion paragraph. I know it's just my anecdotal history, but that's what I've got to work with. But what I know for sure is that it ate him up inside that he couldn't do better for several years. Our story does have a happy ending where after several years he was successful in landing a new gig (through a family connection) that he parlayed into a second career. But not everyone has a wealthy family member who can help them stay afloat or an "in" to a second career. But they deserve to have a chance to work their way out of poverty.