Clutch gene

[lebron23james]

You're not talking about the same thing. 'Clutch' comes from 'in the clutch'. Its how you perform late in a close game where your shot means the difference between winning and losing. How do you perform in those moments?

Doesn't matter how good your team is. All teams, even stacked ones, even favored ones, have games that are very close and come down to if your guys make plays under pressure or not. Jordan did that, plenty. So did/does LeBron. Both more than Kobe.

Eye test says Kyrie as being very clutch. If i recall correctly Lebron has pretty good last minute last shot stats, but i am too lazy to look it up to see if it's better than Jordan.

 

[dtgold88]

You're not talking about the same thing. 'Clutch' comes from 'in the clutch'. Its how you perform late in a close game where your shot means the difference between winning and losing. How do you perform in those moments?

Doesn't matter how good your team is. All teams, even stacked ones, even favored ones, have games that are very close and come down to if your guys make plays under pressure or not. Jordan did that, plenty. So did/does LeBron. Both more than Kobe.

agree with your analysis of clutch and what it means if it exists. And, yes, I say if because MJ and Kobe failed more often than not in these moments. More than they did in "regular" moments. So not sure how either could be called clutch.

Isn't to say MJ isn't the GOAT.

 

[dtgold88]

Eye test says Kyrie as being very clutch. If i recall correctly Lebron has pretty good last minute last shot stats, but i am too lazy to look it up to see if it's better than Jordan.

Also not looking, but last I saw in one metric (I think last 24 seconds with game withing 2-3 points) Lebron was ahead of MJ. Think MJ was 5-11 and Lebron had a slightly higher %.

I will say I always wanted Lebron to pass off to Kyrie in these situations when both were here.

 

[Sparhawk]

It's essentially the same thing as 'clutch' hitting in MLB.

Given a large enough sample size, hitting in close and late situations will on average trend towards the players career numbers.

 

[dtgold88]

It's essentially the same thing as 'clutch' hitting in MLB.

Given a large enough sample size, hitting in close and late situations will on average trend towards the players career numbers.

Yep....which is why I think "clutch" is a fallacy.

 

[Sparhawk]

Yep....which is why I think "clutch" is a fallacy.

If one can provide evidence that their career close and late stats are significantly better than their career averages, I'll listen.

 

[Sparhawk]

A lot of folks will say, "Derek Jeter was clutch!" as if it's official lore.
And, okay, maybe those are mostly NY fans.

A quick check at baseballreference shows :
11195 career AB, .310 AVG, .817 OPS
Late and Close 1470 AB, .283 AVG, .776 OPS
I don't believe those numbers are significant in either direction.

This myth even produced an article from the nerds at 538 :
Derek Jeter Isn’t Clutch. He’s Just Good.

 

[dtgold88]

A lot of folks will say, "Derek Jeter was clutch!" as if it's official lore.
And, okay, maybe those are mostly NY fans.

A quick check at baseballreference shows :
11195 career AB, .310 AVG, .817 OPS
Late and Close 1470 AB, .283 AVG, .776 OPS
I don't believe those numbers are significant in either direction.

This myth even produced an article from the nerds at 538 :
Derek Jeter Isn’t Clutch. He’s Just Good.

In addition, they think ARod is a failure. Don't know the close and late stats, but I know ARod's OPS is a whopping .020 behind Jeter in the postseason.

I remember in 2007, I think, the Tribe was playing the Yanks in the playoffs. If there was a so-called clutch moment I was hoping it was Jeter's turn. He was a disaster in the series.

 

[trojanfan12]

agree with your analysis of clutch and what it means if it exists. And, yes, I say if because MJ and Kobe failed more often than not in these moments. More than they did in "regular" moments. So not sure how either could be called clutch.

Isn't to say MJ isn't the GOAT.

Being "clutch" isn't about hitting every late shot. All of these guys have missed more than they've made in those situations.

Imo, it's more about first, not just being willing to take those shots, but wanting to take those shots and actively seeking them out in those situations.

Hitting a few of those shots obviously helps too. lol

Part of the reason Lebron wasn't really considered clutch (and what people still use against him) is that earlier in his career, he didn't seem to want the ball and was too willing to defer.

No one has ever accused MJ or Kobe of not being willing to take those shots which is part of the "lore" around them.

Once those narratives get set, it's really hard to change them. That's why it seems like some think that MJ never missed a clutch shot, Kobe only missed like 2 and Lebron has never taken a clutch shot.

This, even though Lebron looks to have actually hit those shots at a higher rate than MJ or Kobe.

 

[dtgold88]

Being "clutch" isn't about hitting every late shot. All of these guys have missed more than they've made in those situations.

Imo, it's more about first, not just being willing to take those shots, but wanting to take those shots and actively seeking them out in those situations.

Hitting a few of those shots obviously helps too. lol

Part of the reason Lebron wasn't really considered clutch (and what people still use against him) is that earlier in his career, he didn't seem to want the ball and was too willing to defer.

No one has ever accused MJ or Kobe of not being willing to take those shots which is part of the "lore" around them.

Once those narratives get set, it's really hard to change them. That's why it seems like some think that MJ never missed a clutch shot, Kobe only missed like 2 and Lebron has never taken a clutch shot.

This, even though Lebron looks to have actually hit those shots at a higher rate than MJ or Kobe.

You are proving it's hard to change those narratives. I recall the Cavs needing a late shot to win 1 time in one series against Detroit where he passed off to a wide open teammate, then one other time a year or 2 later against Washington (and Jones nailed the shot).

Other than that and Game 7 I cannot think of another time Lebron did not take the big shot in a close game (often to their detriment as Kyrie was a better option). There were a handful of them in early series with Washington alone that Lebron took and made.

 

[trojanfan12]

You are proving it's hard to change those narratives. I recall the Cavs needing a late shot to win 1 time in one series against Detroit where he passed off to a wide open teammate, then one other time a year or 2 later against Washington (and Jones nailed the shot).

Other than that and Game 7 I cannot think of another time Lebron did not take the big shot in a close game (often to their detriment as Kyrie was a better option). There were a handful of them in early series with Washington alone that Lebron took and made.

To be clear, I don't buy into the narratives, but I do understand where they come from.

There were a few with the Heat, especially that first season. But one that stands out was, I forget what game it was, @bksballer89 or @Heatles84 probably remember. But he passed to an open Udonis Haslem.

There was a lot of debate about it at the time because it was the right "basketball play", but the wrong "superstar/clutch play".

 

[dtgold88]

To be clear, I don't buy into the narratives, but I do understand where they come from.

There were a few with the Heat, especially that first season. But one that stands out was, I forget what game it was, @bksballer89 or @Heatles84 probably remember. But he passed to an open Udonis Haslem.

There was a lot of debate about it at the time because it was the right "basketball play", but the wrong "superstar/clutch play".

He's definitely had a few of those. The one I mentioned against Detroit was to a wide open Marshall for the win (but he missed).

 

[bksballer89]

To be clear, I don't buy into the narratives, but I do understand where they come from.

There were a few with the Heat, especially that first season. But one that stands out was, I forget what game it was, @bksballer89 or @Heatles84 probably remember. But he passed to an open Udonis Haslem.

There was a lot of debate about it at the time because it was the right "basketball play", but the wrong "superstar/clutch play".

Utah I believe on the road trip.

 

[WiggyRuss]

if i was down 1 with 7 seconds left on the clock and had to in bound the ball to one player in the NBA to get a quality shot off it would be Kyrie. Durant would prob be #2

 

[trojanfan12]

if i was down 1 with 7 seconds left on the clock and had to in bound the ball to one player in the NBA to get a quality shot off it would be Kyrie. Durant would prob be #2

I think I'd agree with that. With Kyrie's handles, he could take anyone off the dribble to get an open shot and KD can just shoot over anyone.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Kobe took more shots but he also missed more. Going by FG % Lebron is one of the most clutch players of all-time and that list includes MJ. Kobe took more bc every time he got the rock he chunked it up. Of course, you are going to make more shots but it is one of the reasons why Lebron is a greater player than Kobe. He would pick and choose when he would take the shot (he got torn up in the media for it too). Further and further into his career he would take more and more clutch shots and he is one of the best at making them.

Troll thread by a trolly OP. Sorry you are wrong again.

 

[Shanemansj13]

if i was down 1 with 7 seconds left on the clock and had to in bound the ball to one player in the NBA to get a quality shot off it would be Kyrie. Durant would prob be #2

Kyrie is one of the most clutch players I have ever seen play the game. Crazy

 

[lebron23james]

Is it easy to be clutch when you play against guys with mustaches and sunday school teachers like jordan did? This had to be the worst era of basketball. Not only where guys skinny, slow, unathletic, but most importantly ugly. Go back and watch highlights of Jordones great jumping they also cream themselves about. Looks like a poor mans Blake Griffin flying through the air lol

 

[CitySushi]

if i was down 1 with 7 seconds left on the clock and had to in bound the ball to one player in the NBA to get a quality shot off it would be Kyrie. Durant would prob be #2

Dame gotta be top 5 on that list, IMO.

 

[dtgold88]

if i was down 1 with 7 seconds left on the clock and had to in bound the ball to one player in the NBA to get a quality shot off it would be Kyrie. Durant would prob be #2

what I also like about Kyrie over Lebron is if he gets fouled I am way more confident he'll hit his FTs in that situation.