Center Rankings

[WiggyRuss]

@LAD Sorry, this was a lot to process, so I'll have to break up my responses to try to best answer all your thoughts.

I think you've conveniently glossed over my question to your "position & challenged shots" claim but, ok I get what you're asking. And yes I think a player can be a great scorer but not a great offensive player.

I haven't glossed over it. What I said in the previous thread, and to which you agreed, that position and challenged shots is immeasurable by most standards. Unfortunately for this, you have to rely on the eye test. I've watched every Warrior game, with very few exceptions since Bogut's arrival (and the upwards of 20 shitty seasons previous to him coming). For me, he's always in a great help defense position. His affect on the defensive end transcends his value individually as a rebounder and shot blocker.

But how does one say he's a great defender when blocks, rebounds & steals are all part of defense-directly linked to him being in position & challenging shots (the intangibles) yet his numbers in those areas are at best, average?

Blocks, rebounds and steals are valuable. I'm not discounting them at all. What I'm saying is that they don't paint a truly accurate picture of a defenders ability. You can be a great shot blocker, but continually out of your team defense concept chasing stats. You can also be a great rebounder but not a significantly good defender (see Tristan Thompson and Kenneth Faried). The Warriors are usually undersized in the paint, which causes Bogut to play the rover on defense. If he has to commit to strong side help from the weakside, it eliminates his positioning for rebounds. This is especially true when the ball is whipped from one end of the court to the other. Many times it's Bogut chasing the guards out of paint. His job is to funnel to help defense and he does it incredibly well. Those things don't show up in the statistics and because he is so good at doing that, it hurts bottom line stats like Rebounding and Blocks.

Assuming we agree that there's a reaction to every action-if he's great at positioning himself shouldn't something tangible come out of that? Otherwise what was the point? Sure you can say he was in good position but what effect did it have? Did he block a shot? Did he rebound a missed shot? Or did he simply make the offensive player go to a different spot on the floor-that could have ended in a score anyway?

Again, how do you measure an immeasurable stat? If he's in a position to divert a guard away from the hoop, it leads to a worse shot. If you're looking for a measurable here is opponents field goal percentage, which if you look is tied with San Antonio for best in the NBA. He doesn't have to block a shot to make the difference. Forcing a contested shot is every bit as good in relative terms to a block. If you're trying to judge a players worth from a Stat sheet, it's impossible to do. You could find no difference in defensive abilities if you try to find them on paper between Bruce Bowen and James Harden. If you can't find the value in a contested shot, altered shot, or creating a more difficult shot, there's really no argument to be made.

If it ended in said player scoring then him just being in position really wasn't effective defense if the end result was a score. But, if he was in position and blocked the shot that turned into an offensive possession for his team, that imo is effective defense. Same thing with a rebound. Those things are effective plays that helped create an offensive possession for his team-the goal of all centers.

Your hypothetical here doesn't really make sense because what you're saying is if Kawhi Leonard forces his man to give up the ball and his teammate hits a 3, then Leonard's defense was pointless. That's just not correct. One player is not responsible for the end result of a teams possession. But if Kawhi steals the ball then that's great defense? I don't know if you're familiar with Football, but I'll use the Cornerback analogy. If you have a team throwing at a cornerback multiple times every game and he ends the season with 8 interceptions, versus a team not even throwing to a cornerback's side and he ends up with 0 interceptions, who is the better defender? The cornerback who didn't have a ball thrown his way, because the defense didn't want to deal with him. They picked on the bad defender, and although his statistics are great, he's the worse defender.

Having said that how can you rate the "intangibles" as a sign of his defensive greatness when without a deeper dive you don't know the end result? Blocks, rebounds & steals all provide an end result to the play without the possibility of question. So how can you say those stats shouldn't be used in that evaluation?

Lastly, intangibles by definition you cannot measure. Blocks, rebounds and steals are all measured, but they don't tell the whole story. I'm not saying to discount them at all, but take them with a grain of salt. There is not a 1-1 correlation on how they define a players defensive ability.

there are advanced stats that will tell you those things- defensive metrics etc... and draw a much clearer picture than the "traditional" counting stats. Certain people have no interest in these because A. they have grown up their whole life with the traditional counting stats B. They are stubborn and or lazy and C. They probably just plain dont understand an advanced stat- and understandingly- sometinng like WAR has a very detailed formula that unless you were REALLY REALLY REALLY good with stats you could never compute on your own.

obviously those advanced stats didnt exist years ago- but the ones today would absolutely show how well Bogut can play defense and how he effects the team, is a professional and does him job.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

there are advanced stats that will tell you those things- defensive metrics etc... and draw a much clearer picture than the "traditional" counting stats. Certain people have no interest in these because A. they have grown up their whole life with the traditional counting stats B. They are stubborn and or lazy and C. They probably just plain dont understand an advanced stat- and understandingly- sometinng like WAR has a very detailed formula that unless you were REALLY REALLY REALLY good with stats you could never compute on your own.

obviously those advanced stats didnt exist years ago- but the ones today would absolutely show how well Bogut can play defense and how he effects the team, is a professional and does him job.

You still haven't explained why you think Thompson is a Center!

 

[WiggyRuss]

You still haven't explained why you think Thompson is a Center!

because he is the Cavs starting center.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

because he is the Cavs starting center.

Just because lebron decides to put his pal at starting center, doesn't make him a center.

Magic played the center position in the 1980 finals - is he a center too?

 

[WiggyRuss]

Just because lebron decides to put his pal at starting center, doesn't make him a center.

Magic played the center position in the 1980 finals - is he a center too?

so you are saying LeBron went to the coach and said- Tristan is playing center....lol...yah...

Tristan is playing center because he was playing, and has been palying a lot better than Mozgov....that- and in hte NBA you dont need a traditional center except against a few select teams- its better to have a versatile guy that can let you play different styles and switch on D etc......butthat would take basketball knowledge.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

so you are saying LeBron went to the coach and said- Tristan is playing center....lol...yah...

Yes, yes he did! Everybody but sad little cavs fan boys knows that. But perhaps you can start a new thread about it in the hope you don't get owned like the previous two dozen threads you were involved in!

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

But I am not going to turn yet another thread into a Rodman debate. This is getting ridiculous.

You brought him into this thread.

The conversation was about Bogut.

You are wrong.

You know it and so do I.

So, I'm really not sure why you opened this door again.

 

[Wamu]

Dammit I was hoping to see Greg Oden on this list.

 

[CitySushi]

If intangibles aren't measurable then why base your debate on them solely? All I'm suggesting is we use everything available in rating players-which would include stats. That is why they record stats, yes? I've already said I don't think he's terrible, because I understand he does things that don't show up on the stat sheet. But I have to stop short of saying he's great when I consider his average stats. The reason? Because as the team's center his primary job is to defend which should include getting more than 8 rebounds a game & more than 1 block a game. We don't agree but I would like to see more from a center than that if he wants to be called a great defensive center.

I haven't. I provided advanced statistics in previous posts, which were never addressed. I'm not going to search them out to bring them up again. Those were ignored because baseline stats like Rebounds and Blocks matter to you. That's fine. We're going in circles in this argument so we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I haven't. I provided advanced statistics in previous posts, which were never addressed. I'm not going to search them out to bring them up again. Those were ignored because baseline stats like Rebounds and Blocks matter to you. That's fine. We're going in circles in this argument so we'll just agree to disagree.

those traditional counting stats do not paint NEARLY the picture the new advanced stats do. its just a simple fact....its Moneyball......and typically the old, stodgy, and slow to educate themselves - resist that change- either by flatly denying it- or ignoring it--- you shouldnt be surprised that LAD is behind the NBA learning curve as it comes to those type of thigns.

 

[LAD]

those traditional counting stats do not paint NEARLY the picture the new advanced stats do. its just a simple fact....its Moneyball......and typically the old, stodgy, and slow to educate themselves - resist that change- either by flatly denying it- or ignoring it--- you shouldnt be surprised that LAD is behind the NBA learning curve as it comes to those type of thigns.

Keep it moving loser. Clearly nobody cares about your input around here anymore.....especially when you try to co-sign to deflect from your idiotic showing on two other topics.

 

[ChrisGar15]

Lmao @ Whiteside below Tristan.

Just.......

Someone should start a tread on Whiteside vs. TT. I bet it would get over 50 posts. (or maybe even over 100)

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

because he is the Cavs starting center.

That just means the Cavs don't have a true center who they feel is capable of being on the court.
In all seriousness, James could be a more effective center on most nights.

Anyway, you create this thread, Gasol breaks his leg.
You go to Cavs game, Love fucks his shoulder up again.
If I were you, I wouldn't drive anywhere near Kyries house.

 

[CodeBreaker]

Towns would be top 5 next season.

 

[tlance]

You brought him into this thread.

The conversation was about Bogut.

You are wrong.

You know it and so do I.

So, I'm really not sure why you opened this door again.

Just because you, and a few others don't agree with me does not make me wrong. This is very subjective and interpretive.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Just because you, and a few others don't agree with me does not make me wrong. This is very subjective and interpretive.

Yeah, that's a fair statement.