Center Rankings

[CitySushi]

Hahaha and your point isn't extreme by saying he's great?

Come on...he's not even top 10 on your own list compared to other CENTERS in the league. Are all those other guys only being graded on offense and not defense? And to that point if they are being judged on defense and he's ranked 19th out of 20 doesn't that tell us he's nowhere near great? Good, average maybe? Where's the line between good & great drawn?

Now you're honestly just picking out things to suit your argument. Any logical person could see this ranking as objective and for what it's worth: overall player value. I don't have Bogut in my top 10 because I'm not a homer and realize there are two ends of the court.

Ask any logical person on this board, who the better player is Brook Lopez or Andrew Bogut, you'll get a unanimous answer, Lopez. If you ask any person on this board who the better defender is, it would be almost unanimous in Bogut, the lone opposing opinion would be yours.

 

[CitySushi]

In Bogut's case I have based my opinion based on his stats during his entire CAREER-playing for two different types of teams. He's shown to basically have the same numbers in all 10 seasons suggesting no improvement. Was he already great when he entered the league? If we go by your theory we might have to believe that.

So guys can't improve? LOL ok.

 

[tducey]

Top 5: Cousins, Drummond, Gasol, Jordan, Horford

 

[tlance]

You do know that defense is sort of an intangible trait don't you?

Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell were considered great defenders. Neither of them had any sort of numbers to back them up. What happened? Did the hype train just build them up and everyone just sort of agreed with it?

Seriously, people who follow the game on a day in basis, evaluating all teams and players, decided that Bogut was at least good enough to get 6th, SIXTH, in defensive player of the year voting last year. In addition he was on the second team all-nba defense team meaning he was the second best defensive center in the NBA.

I mean, how else do you define Great?

The funny thing is that Rodman only averaged .7 steals and .6 blocks for his career, yet LAD holds him up as elite. For anybody else though, they need to get blocks and steals.

I would think being second team all defense and 6th in DPOY voting would be enough for most people. Of 450 players in the NBA, Bogut was the votes as the 6th best defender. Not good enough I guess.

 

[LAD]

Now you're honestly just picking out things to suit your argument. Any logical person could see this ranking as objective and for what it's worth: overall player value. I don't have Bogut in my top 10 because I'm not a homer and realize there are two ends of the court.

Ask any logical person on this board, who the better player is Brook Lopez or Andrew Bogut, you'll get a unanimous answer, Lopez. If you ask any person on this board who the better defender is, it would be almost unanimous in Bogut, the lone opposing opinion would be yours.

Clearly we're not going to agree. And I could say you're also picking out things-maybe even leaving some things out to help your argument when I point out that his stats don't support him being a great center. Again, I will say I never said he isn't good, just not great imo.

To your statement regarding how others would rate Bogut, I'm not sure that you can say without a doubt I'm the only one who doesn't think he's a great center. Also, might I point out, I've also said I think he fits in well with GS & he gives them what they need-however-lets not confuse that with me saying he's neither GREAT or TERRIBLE. My opinion is when he's measured up against other great centers in the league there's no comparison.

 

[LAD]

So guys can't improve? LOL ok.

Of course they can, which is the goal in most cases. But in the case of Bogut he has not-which was my point.

 

[LAD]

The funny thing is that Rodman only averaged .7 steals and .6 blocks for his career, yet LAD holds him up as elite. For anybody else though, they need to get blocks and steals.

I would think being second team all defense and 6th in DPOY voting would be enough for most people. Of 450 players in the NBA, Bogut was the votes as the 6th best defender. Not good enough I guess.

Another funny thing is you went on to discredit DPOY accolades in the debate about Rodman, saying many players have been given accolades that they did not deserve.

My response to that was that could be the case when said player doesn't have a laundry list of them-more specifically one or two. I think that fits in the case with Bogut. He only has a couple...which could've certainly been given undeservingly.

 

[trojanfan12]

Gotta love stats arguments.

Stats back up someone's point: "Look at the stats. They show how good the guy is or isn't."

Stats don't back up someone's point: "You can't just look at the stats. You need to use your eyes."

I guess that's why they say there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

[The Derski]

Is Tristan even a center?

 

[trojanfan12]

Is Tristan even a center?

Technically speaking? No. But the Cavs use him in that capacity sometimes when they go small. Wiggy is unable to tell the difference.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Where the fuck is Tyson Chandler? Oh right… he sucks.

 

[The Derski]

Where the fuck is Tyson Chandler? Oh right… he sucks.

He absolutely leveled dion waiters last night so that was cool

 

[LAD]

Gotta love stats arguments.

Stats back up someone's point: "Look at the stats. They show how good the guy is or isn't."

Stats don't back up someone's point: "You can't just look at the stats. You need to use your eyes."

I guess that's why they say there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

To your point I agree that stats alone don't tell the entire story due to their fluctuation-but do help support findings. I wonder though, in a case when we have 10 years of stats that have remained the same-how someone can find a result of "improvement" in only that final year sample size.

 

[CitySushi]

Clearly we're not going to agree. And I could say you're also picking out things-maybe even leaving some things out to help your argument when I point out that his stats don't support him being a great center. Again, I will say I never said he isn't good, just not great imo.

To your statement regarding how others would rate Bogut, I'm not sure that you can say without a doubt I'm the only one who doesn't think he's a great center. Also, might I point out, I've also said I think he fits in well with GS & he gives them what they need-however-lets not confuse that with me saying he's neither GREAT or TERRIBLE. My opinion is when he's measured up against other great centers in the league there's no comparison.

I thought we had previously agreed to disagree, which is why when you brought out your guns again for this argument, I had to go full throttle.

I've never ducked a single aspect of what you pointed out. I provided advanced statistics, which you didn't acknowledge because they weren't rebounds or blocks. I provided additional aspects he affects the game by position and challenging shots, but I guess that wasn't a valid argument because there wasn't a statistic for it. I then said how other players who were noted great defenders did not have metrics to back it up and that wasn't good enough either.

I've never left out a single thing to cover up any deficiencies he has on defense, because there really are not any.

 

[tlance]

Another funny thing is you went on to discredit DPOY accolades in the debate about Rodman, saying many players have been given accolades that they did not deserve.

My response to that was that could be the case when said player doesn't have a laundry list of them-more specifically one or two. I think that fits in the case with Bogut. He only has a couple...which could've certainly been given undeservingly.

Putting words in my mouth again.

I did not discredit DPOY rankings. If a player is in the conversation, they are great. Does not matter if they won, finished 3rd or 6th. Determining the winner is extremely subjective. That was my point earlier. Any player in the conversation is a great defender. You can't say that Leonard is a better defender than Green because he won the award last year, for the same reason that you can't say Curry was better than LeBron last year because he won MVP. You can argue either thing, but the award by itself is not proof.

The accolade itself is almost less meaningful than being in the conversation, unless it is nearly unanimous.

 

[LAD]

I thought we had previously agreed to disagree, which is why when you brought out your guns again for this argument, I had to go full throttle.

I've never ducked a single aspect of what you pointed out. I provided advanced statistics, which you didn't acknowledge because they weren't rebounds or blocks. I provided additional aspects he affects the game by position and challenging shots, but I guess that wasn't a valid argument because there wasn't a statistic for it. I then said how other players who were noted great defenders did not have metrics to back it up and that wasn't good enough either.

I've never left out a single thing to cover up any deficiencies he has on defense, because there really are not any.

Wait, wait, wait. I didn't bring out any guns. I simply made a comment about your rating him 19th on a list of only 20 because it seems to contradict your opinion of him being great.

I never discounted your points about position & challenging shots, just asked why if he's doing those things at such a high level that he doesn't have blocks (from challenging shots) or rebounds (from being in position) to show for it. The only other player that I've recognized as being a great defender (for the purpose of this arguement is Rodman) and I think his resume shows why that is. Now if Bogut had the same quantities of the same accolades then there would be no question.

Lastly, I already said I think the fact that the rest of the team (Dray in particular) play such good team defense that it masks Boguts weaknesses. I mean if Bogut positions himself well in defense shouldn't it be easy to grab the most boards-at least more than the guy next to him that's only 6'7? These are the reasons I can't get on board with your assessment of Bogut.

 

[LAD]

Putting words in my mouth again.

I did not discredit DPOY rankings. If a player is in the conversation, they are great. Does not matter if they won, finished 3rd or 6th. Determining the winner is extremely subjective. That was my point earlier. Any player in the conversation is a great defender. You can't say that Leonard is a better defender than Green because he won the award last year, for the same reason that you can't say Curry was better than LeBron last year because he won MVP. You can argue either thing, but the award by itself is not proof.

The accolade itself is almost less meaningful than being in the conversation, unless it is nearly unanimous.

See, I think that is the problem. You don't credit the player that HAS won, rather lumping them with all the others that were considered. That is the same situation when kids get trophies in sports leagues whether they've won or not. When that's the case how does the winner stand out?

And, I did NOT put words in your mouth. You said that very thing...the great thing about documentation is it's ability to be used at a later date to refresh one's memory.

 

[CitySushi]

Wait, wait, wait. I didn't bring out any guns. I simply made a comment about your rating him 19th on a list of only 20 because it seems to contradict your opinion of him being great.

I never discounted your points about position & challenging shots, just asked why if he's doing those things at such a high level that he doesn't have blocks (from challenging shots) or rebounds (from being in position) to show for it. The only other player that I've recognized as being a great defender (for the purpose of this arguement is Rodman) and I think his resume shows why that is. Now if Bogut had the same quantities of the same accolades then there would be no question.

Lastly, I already said I think the fact that the rest of the team (Dray in particular) play such good team defense that it masks Boguts weaknesses. I mean if Bogut positions himself well in defense shouldn't it be easy to grab the most boards-at least more than the guy next to him that's only 6'7? These are the reasons I can't get on board with your assessment of Bogut.

It doesn't contradict anything I've said because I've never said Bogut was a great center. I said he was a great defensive center. You read exactly what you wanted to read into that. Again no logical person would assume that was a defensive ranking, because it just says center ranking.

Your arguments are mind numbing because you keep regurgitating "Great center" as you believe it be interchangeable with "Great Defensive Center. These two things are NOT the same. I cannot stress that enough.

Greatness on one end of the court does not equal overall greatness. You can be great at something and not be an overall great player. You can be a great scorer and not a great player. You can be a great defender, and not a great player.

Lets pose the question this way:

Can you be a great scorer and not a great offensive player? Can you be a great rebounder and not a great defender? Can you be a great shot blocker and not be a great defender? Likewise, can you be a great defender and not a great rebounder?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

We have a separate thread for this, that you're well aware of.

In typical fashion, Wiggy opens up a new thread to try to take another shot at Whiteside. The boy's delusional.

90% disagreed with him there. The 3 that agreed with him did as a joke.
Seriously Wig, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but give it up already.


And, accept my bet you big pussy.

 

[LAD]

It doesn't contradict anything I've said because I've never said Bogut was a great center. I said he was a great defensive center. You read exactly what you wanted to read into that. Again no logical person would assume that was a defensive ranking, because it just says center ranking.

Your arguments are mind numbing because you keep regurgitating "Great center" as you believe it be interchangeable with "Great Defensive Center. These two things are NOT the same. I cannot stress that enough.

Greatness on one end of the court does not equal overall greatness. You can be great at something and not be an overall great player. You can be a great scorer and not a great player. You can be a great defender, and not a great player.

Lets pose the question this way:

Can you be a great scorer and not a great offensive player? Can you be a great rebounder and not a great defender? Can you be a great shot blocker and not be a great defender? Likewise, can you be a great defender and not a great rebounder?

I think you've conveniently glossed over my question to your "position & challenged shots" claim but, ok I get what you're asking. And yes I think a player can be a great scorer but not a great offensive player.

But how does one say he's a great defender when blocks, rebounds & steals are all part of defense-directly linked to him being in position & challenging shots (the intangibles) yet his numbers in those areas are at best, average?

Assuming we agree that there's a reaction to every action-if he's great at positioning himself shouldn't something tangible come out of that? Otherwise what was the point? Sure you can say he was in good position but what effect did it have? Did he block a shot? Did he rebound a missed shot? Or did he simply make the offensive player go to a different spot on the floor-that could have ended in a score anyway?

If it ended in said player scoring then him just being in position really wasn't effective defense if the end result was a score. But, if he was in position and blocked the shot that turned into an offensive possession for his team, that imo is effective defense. Same thing with a rebound. Those things are effective plays that helped create an offensive possession for his team-the goal of all centers.

Having said that how can you rate the "intangibles" as a sign of his defensive greatness when without a deeper dive you don't know the end result? Blocks, rebounds & steals all provide an end result to the play without the possibility of question. So how can you say those stats shouldn't be used in that evaluation?