Best Catcher of All Time...

[Wazmankg]

Lets take WAR out of the picture for a second and just look at defensive stats... doesn't matter whether the numbers are close or not, just saying which Catcher was better as a catcher in each category

Bench was far superior vs the stolen Base...

Carter was far superior in Passed balls, and Wild pitches(who knows how many of these actually matter)

Bench was slightly better at double plays

Carter had a better ERA when he was catcher than Bench did, and had a better differential of ERA when playing against when not playing...

Carter had a better fielding %

As for SB, carter was better at MEANINGFUL caught stealing(weird stat, but it is a stat)

Carter played significantly more games as catcher, as Bench played a lot more at other positions

I'll give you passed balls.
.991 to .990 isn't even statistically significant.
Wild pitches, I wouldn't call Carter far superior based upon the numbers.
The whole ERA thing there are just far too many variables and "other player" dependencies. Maybe Bench had a better defensive backup.

But I really have to stop you with the MEANINGFUL caught stealing stat. Where are the MEANINGFUL passed balls and MEANINGFUL wild pitches stats ? When is a base runner stealing a base NOT potentially meaningful ? Does this have something to do with defensive indifference ? In any case, it sounds like bs to me and a case of the sabr heads getting lost in the weeds again.

What I do find meaningful about their respective stolen base stats, in addition to the fact that Bench threw out a higher %, is the fact that only 1,079 guys tried to steal on Bench while 2,308 tried to steal on Carter. 421 more guys actually stole a base on Carter than even attempted to run on Bench. That's a massive discrepancy that can't be accounted for by the extra 2 seasons worth of games Carter caught.... 2056 games caught vs 1742.


Stack that up against Carter's passed ball superiority. The 2 stats basically amount to the same thing... a runner advances. Carter had 84 in his entire career and Bench had 94... bfd.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'll give you passed balls.
.991 to .990 isn't even statistically significant.
Wild pitches, I wouldn't call Carter far superior based upon the numbers.
The whole ERA thing there are just far too many variables and "other player" dependencies. Maybe Bench had a better defensive backup.

But I really have to stop you with the MEANINGFUL caught stealing stat. Where are the MEANINGFUL passed balls and MEANINGFUL wild pitches stats ? When is a base runner stealing a base NOT potentially meaningful ? Does this have something to do with defensive indifference ? In any case, it sounds like bs to me and a case of the sabr heads getting lost in the weeds again.

What I do find meaningful about their respective stolen base stats, in addition to the fact that Bench threw out a higher %, is the fact that only 1,079 guys tried to steal on Bench while 2,308 tried to steal on Carter. 421 more guys actually stole a base on Carter than even attempted to run on Bench. That's a massive discrepancy that can't be accounted for by the extra 2 seasons worth of games Carter caught.... 2056 games caught vs 1742.


Stack that up against Carter's passed ball superiority. The 2 stats basically amount to the same thing... a runner advances. Carter had 84 in his entire career and Bench had 94... bfd.

That's fair, I didn't understand the meaningful CS stat anyway, was just listing the stats I saw... But I did see enough to at least make a fair argument that Carter was better defensively without using dWAR... I just have no clue how to even start making an analysis for defense... So I guess I take the easy way out and use dWAR, as I think WAR is the easy way out in offense too...

 

[gvsulaker82]

What makes you trust the memory/opinion of everyone who's watched baseball for years?

I mean, I know lifelong Yankee fans that have tried to argue that Jeter's wasn't a bad defensive shortstop. Should I take their word because they've seen Jeter play their entire careers?

Didnt say I trusted them. Just said there is more to baseball players than stats. I prefer stats myself, but believe that others can insert positive contributions without necessarily using them.
I dont trust people that post stats either without researching it mself. Many times people misinterpret them or just post inaccurate statistics. Im sure IVe been guilty of it. It was either you or that other stats guy on the al central smack talk thread last year that posted wildly inaccurate stats about oaklands offense. It happens. My apologies if it wasnt you and the other posters name has slipped my mind.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Didnt say I trusted them. Just said there is more to baseball players than stats. I prefer stats myself, but believe that others can insert positive contributions without necessarily using them.

How so, if many of us haven't seen many of these players???

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Derek Jeter made one of the NICEST defensive plays of all time, but we all know he is not that great defensively because the stats tell it... The problem with the eye test is that it is limited to what actually happens, and not what should have happened...

 

[gvsulaker82]

How so, if many of us haven't seen many of these players???

Oh, good point. I was referring to players in my lifetime which is why I dont have much to say about sandy koufax or tom seaver. I know they were good but I have a better idea of how good roger clemens and randy johnson are, even with looking a statistics due to watching their careers unfold.

 

[Montalban]

So, who's the best catcher of all time not named Johnny Bench?

+1

 

[obxyankeefan]

Derek Jeter made one of the NICEST defensive plays of all time, but we all know he is not that great defensively because the stats tell it... The problem with the eye test is that it is limited to what actually happens, and not what should have happened...

And one of the problems with defensive stats is Jeter, A Rod and to some extent Cano couldn't field a beachball in 2008, but all had GG stats in 2009. There defense didn't get any better, they just had a 1b that was making everyone look better.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Derek Jeter made one of the NICEST defensive plays of all time, but we all know he is not that great defensively because the stats tell it... The problem with the eye test is that it is limited to what actually happens, and not what should have happened...

That's a good way of putting it...with the Jeter example, the eye test may tell one that he's pretty good at making plays on the balls he gets to, but it may not tell one that he doesn't get to nearly as many balls as other shortstops.

 

[tnerb57]

So, who's the best catcher of all time not named Johnny Bench?

Aw damit. I voted before I read the first post. I thought whoever made the poll had a screw loose.

 

[tnerb57]

Ted Simmons is way underrated and would have made an excellent manager.

He always looked like he just smoked a fatty.

 

[tnerb57]

Aw damit. I voted before I read the first post. I thought whoever made the poll had a screw loose.

And since I voted other, I do have a worthy candidate that did not make the list. Manny Sanguillen. I think he had almost as much influence as Bench did at changing the image of the catcher position. Bench had his hinge glove and rocket arm, and Manny came along at almost the same time with his unconventional "squat" behind the plate, which was almost a flattening out to create a low target.

There you have it. Manny Sanguillen.

 

[tnerb57]

I will throw in a curve ball here... Gary Carter caught it, so he was BETTER than Johnny Bench!!!

Oh no you dittent!

 

[tnerb57]

Elston Howard wasn't that good defensively.

~Juan Marichal